Bobi 1 Kenobi

B. Beware
O. Of
B. BOB 

good point BOB1, about Coop & Audrey would have been good together etc, but I think in hindsight Kyle had the right idea.  I also think that later on, JJ was a MUCH better match to Audrey, even though he was probably similar in age to Audrey.  As for Annie, I don't know if she was "perfect" for Coop, but she too was new, different slightly older than Audrey and probably a breath of fresh air for Cooper, and even though I may be in the minority I enjoyed these brief affairs more than I would have if Coop & Audrey got together.

I think after episode 6 with the bed scene, whatever they discussed that night changed Audrey and Coop's relationship and he saw her more as a special friend, mainly because he knew how she felt about him and how difficult it was for her.  When I was that age, I had obsessions with hunky, older guys, but again that's what makes it so desirable - the longing, the knowingness that you CAN'T realistically always get what you want.  The burning passion/tension between them is much more fun imo.

"watch out for my cousin.."

"watch out for my cousin.."

I'm in the minority with you: I enjoy the Cooper/ Annie scenes (their faces scrambled eggs ) moreover I enjoy the Audrey/ JJ scenes... which doesn't change the facts that both those romances were very classic and predictable if not cliche... while the platonic relationship between Audrey and Cooper was really something fresh and worthwile.

Like you said - Annie was probably something fresh and worthwhile for Cooper, but for the viewers it was nothing catching really.

Bobi 1 Kenobi

B. Beware
O. Of
B. BOB 

i've talked about it so much over the years (yes, years)

I guess the confusion for most, and the point of argument is the term "romance."  Meaning would a romance in the sense of the two sleeping together and dating, and talking in the gazeebo like Donna and James ruin it.  Yeah, it would, and it would be silly.

My point was always that the two should remained involved narratively, and that's where the series falls apart for me.  I don't know, and have never learned exactly how far or to what extent the romance was supposed to go when it was projected for the second stage act following the LP wrap up.  But I do imagine it involved Windom and Cooper's past and the woman he lost.  Too many of the early season two scenes indicate this.  Most likely, even if the Cooper character is struggling with what is right and proper, he is still somewhat stuck by circumstances with the Audrey character.  A good example of this going forward is when he receives the phonecall that Maddy's body is found.  There's no denying what the story intent here is, and how the two are joined narratively yet kept apart. 

The Wheeler/Annie plots are frustrating to me for obvious reasons.  But also because they are the same storyline happening at the same time.  And Wheeler has the same characteristics as Cooper, and Annie has as Audrey in terms of what the tension was previously in the Cooper/Audrey scenes.  Wheeler is the tall, dark mysterious stranger -but is forthright and helps Audrey see the world in a more beautiful light;  Annie is the wounded, guarded virgin that has an off-kilter view of the world.  Both of these are the groundwork already set-up over the past year to the invested viewer, which was then aborted and then excellerated by the pressence of these two new characters to salvage the essential original storyline.  (Hell, even Audrey and Annie give the same speech at the Miss Twin peaks fest- just broken in half).

Ray Wise was disappointed when he found out he was the killer.  ("I was hoping to God it wasn't me.")  Is that any different?  A story had been mapped out, the groundwork layed, etc.

I also think it's a little silly not to ignore the elephant in the room.  Most of the changes happened in the eleventh hour of late fall 1990 after Fenn had the Emmy nomination, and a large percentage of the publicity and magazine covers.

Bobi 1 Kenobi

B. Beware
O. Of
B. BOB 

I come down on this pretty much the same as Bob1.

To me, both Annie and Wheeler came off as shallow characters trying to fill in the gaps of what had previously been built between Audrey and Coop.

I know a lot of people feel that way about Wheeler, though I may be in the minority about Annie.

It seems my daughter falls in the same category as the majority of Twin peaks viewers

We were watching Episodes 24 and 25 and her face was growing more and more dissatisfied, finally she said:

Oh no. I DON'T like that. First this Titanic guy and now this Annie is even worse! Audrey, she'll make it somehow (I think she meant that Audrey was capable of coming back to Coop) but this silly smile on Cooper's face (I think she was referring to the penguin tuxedo scene!) now that is really BAD!

Bobi 1 Kenobi

B. Beware
O. Of
B. BOB 

It sounds like your daughter is very smart and has good taste.

you should be relieved, this is a good sign.

Indeed it is!

Hey, what about the question I asked a few posts above, the one with a quote from your post that I didn't understand? 11th hour, elephant in the room... ;-)

Bobi 1 Kenobi

B. Beware
O. Of
B. BOB 

haha, sorry BOB didn't notice the question.

The elephant in the room is the backstage politics happening after the success of the first season and the popularity of the Audrey character. It's speculation but most likely there was more to it than Kyle ordering the changes to the plot arcs than simply his character wouldn't do this.  He'd have to be an idiot to not know while filming the first season and getting the scripts for the first batch of second season episodes that the Coop/Audrey characters have a romantic angle (to what degree it gets consummated is irrelevent).  To all of a sudden be taken aback by this is slightly absurd.   Frost said in an interview "all of our (fan) mail was about Audrey and Cooper."  The magazine covers and print ads were predominantly these two together.  So the elephant in the room is the thing that Frost says he "doesn't want to get into."  What another producer said, "for the intermurals, that wasn't going to happen..."   Engels said last year, the decision came down to Boyle not wanting Kyle to do it.  Fenn wasn't supposed to be a character on the show at all initially, and by the end of the season she's getting the Emmy and Golden Globe nods, the most magazine covers, and potentially stealing other people's thunder on a hit show.  I'm not going to go further but I can imagine some of the conversations happening from Boyle.

the eleventh hour meaning the writers had to change script arcs at and past the production due dates for the immediate post Laura solution episodes.  This is why Nadine in high school, James and Evelyn, Lana, Little Nicky are so predominant.  They were originally the B plots and had to be built up more into A plots to make up for the aborted Cooper and Audrey plot.  (Frost has talked about this in Wrapped in Plastic)

Wow, I didn´t know that.

So can we assume that LFB forced Kyle to veto against this romance? That´s crazy! It´s like some highschool-jealousy-action from a woman with a really big ego. Ray Wise had to play a father who raped and killed his child  and he didn´t make a huge deal about it. He was not pleased of course but he played the hell out of his character.

Also is it normal that the lead actors have so much to say in making decision about plotlines?  I mean the most interesting thing for the audience about Twin Peaks were the LP-Murder and the Audrey/Cooper-romance. So after EP 17 the decided to discard the second driving force behind the series? Makes me wonder what was going on between Frost/Boyle/McLachlan at that time. There must be a lot of tension because they must have know that the show would ultimately get killed.

My apologies for necro'ing this thread on my first post, but I figured it would be better than starting a new thread about a topic that's been discussed at length. I had always been interested in TP, but never had a chance to watch it until I recently got Netflix. I was quickly addicted and despite a hectic work schedule was able to go through the series in about a month. My fascination with the story and the characters led me here... so hello to all. Also, I wanted to say "thank you" to Audrey Horne; I've read a lot of your insight here and on dugpa, and really enjoyed it.

As someone just exposed to the TP for the first time, I identify with (I think) the majority of those who watched the series during its original run. Everything about the first season was so fascinating, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't look forward to the Cooper/Audrey scene each episode. It's two incredibly engaging characters with great chemistry. Plus, it made Coop seem a lot more human (especially before we know about Caroline). Just as important, I was gaining a sense of the foreshadowed Cooper/Audrey connection that went beyond their physical and emotional attraction (like when the Giant goes out of his way to remind Coop that he forgot something).

Much like those who have posted before me, I always considered the "romance" to be a continued intertwining of Coop and Audrey's stories without actually consummating it. To me, it was like waiting for Christmas. Once the presents are open, the only way to go is down. But the possibility, the mystery, the anticipation of what could be; that's what made it magical. I don't think I've ever felt as disappointed as when I realized that the story arc had been abandoned.  I hate to use the word "heartbroken," but that's how it felt. But it destroyed the hope that I, and I think a lot of other people, carried and took away much of that magic.

One thing that surprised me (and perhaps should have clued me in earlier?) was when they share a dance at the Milford wedding. I felt like this should have been a bigger moment; I mean, this is the most physical contact they've had since he carried out of OEJ (and far more romantic). There was always the physical space that was maintained during their interactions. And yet whenever they give up that space and really enter into intimate contact, it's just a footnote with some cheesy dialogue. This could have been such a marvelous scene, with a conflicted Cooper and a very "personal" Audrey. Perhaps harken back playfully to their earlier games to see if Coop was able to diffuse the situation. Instead, it's just a let down. Of course, by the next episode you have the kiss in front of Denise, where Audrey marks her territory, so I assumed everything was still on course. That's where I stopped the series when I was rewatching it; going beyond that just made me too sad.

I know there's been a ton of speculation over exactly when Kyle (and likely LFB) killed the story arc, and my initial guess was sometime before Audrey says goodbye when Coop's supposed to leave. It just gave me this bad feeling that the idea was to bear Cooper's scars and use that to cool off the possibility of romantic involvement, espcially combined with the talk of "when I'm all grown up." Of course, the end of the scene is very touching, with Coop's sincere "okay" and Audrey's classic line to end the scene. Have to admit it chokes me up when I watch it.

That's what puzzles me so much about the kiss. I understand that there was limited time to rework much of the script, but if their purpose was steer the audience away from what they had been promising for so long, why have the kiss? All it did was renew my hope in more Coop/Audrey interactions.  I realize in retrospect that Denise and Coop's dialogue is somewhat dismissive of her as a "girl," but watching it the first time all I saw was a fabulous scene by Audrey followed by her saying "by the way, he's mine." Was that whole scene just closure between the two, a way of showing that they were even now?

Don't get me wrong, I still am enamored with the TP universe. But I feel betrayed in by the total abandonment of their interactions. As someone had pointed out earlier, Ray Wise really got the shaft in terms of a) finding out he was the killer, and b) being killed off so quickly. As disappointing as it must have been for him (I know it was for me - Leland may have been my favorite character), he went through with it. That's how it should have been with this arc. Not to mention I agree that it's impossible to believe that Kyle didn't know what was in store for them. Not the way he played those early scenes. Good for Sherilyn for fighting for it.

And the thought of Audrey being pregnant with Wheeler's baby makes me wanna blow chunks.

I Vote For Cooper and Annie!         and a third season! damn, if only.

wow, great first post, entropy.  and thanks for the compliment.

that's a really good question regarding at what point in the series it was determined.  At the time it aired, as a viewer, I simply thought the "grown up, on my own" and telling of Windom scene was just a means to set-up the next half of the series, to keep them dramatically apart for the end of the season.  Even as early as the second episode of the second season when Coop dictates to Diane about Audrey's disappearance and the escape of Earle, I thought it was the obvious set-up for a new story arc around the three.

But knowing what we know years later, and re-examining the structure of the post Laura/Leland solution, it's foggy.  From what I understand Boyle was already talking about changing her character for the second season, and making it more sexy (hence, the premiere bad girl change). If the stink was made then, perhaps the writers and frost chose to ignore it or hoped the behind the scenes tension would soften.  The episode 2.10 scene would have been penned in early october, and filmed in early November.  The 2.11 episode at the Milford wedding has more Audrey dialogue with her asking Cooper, "Didn't you rescue me once?" and while dancing asking if he's in any kind of trouble -reinforcing her dalliance with Bobby was a means to save Cooper.  The changes might have been that it was filmed and then cut, or scraped altogether.  (It is strange that they would have Fenn in makeup and wardrobe only to film a five second scene).

It seems like something might have fully changed in November between the scripts already being written with the Coop/Audrey intention and the filming and that is why the Denise/Audrey confrontation stays the same.  In mid december 1990, Entertainment Weekly ran a snippet about Heather Graham being cast, so by that stage it had to be determined.  And I imagine 2.12 was already shot.  But by the time Audrey's in business suits and entrenched in the Civil War plot, it was definitely changed.

i've asked fenn about this -not extensively.  The first time i met her, she said, 'ugh -you probably know more about what really happened than I did.' 

I had no idea that 2.11 originally had more dialogue between Cooper and Audrey during the dance, although that certainly makes sense given what you said about having her in full make-up for a 5 second scene. So I guess they could have decided to trim down that scene prior to airing if the "Decision" had been made; something they couldn't really do with the Coop/Denise/Audrey scene.

My take on the dialogue in 2.10 was a bit skewed since I didn't really analyze it until after I had watched the full series and was looking for the smoking gun. I think my initial impression when watching it was similar to yours (albeit a few episodes too slow) in thinking that "Ok this is the 3rd time he's mentioned Windom Earle to Diane and each time it's immediately followed by Audrey." Looking at that piece of it and the continued foreshadowing, I'm inclined to think that the arc was still in place by then (although possibly taking heavy enemy fire).

The most frustrating thing to me (and I'm sure others) is the all-or-nothing approach that they took towards the story. As has been previously said, I can't imagine Frost's comments about continuing the romance meant some sort of consummation; obviously, that would have killed the awesome tension and it just seems unlikely that all of the work in subtly connecting Audrey to the lodges was done with the intention of just making her Cooper's arm candy. I suppose we'll never know what was so objectionable in the arc that they had to kill it and take Audrey's character with it. Given the unsubstantiated rumor (at least AFAIK) that the writers were still trying to push through the arc even after the objection had been raised, I think it's maybe possible that they were still hoping to salvage it by 2.15 (I think that's the right one). Audrey Horne, I know you had mentioned that in your original viewing you thought this was when they were bringing Audrey/Cooper/Earle storyline to the front line. Just baseless speculation, but one thought is perhaps they took that "break" after 2.12 to try and cool the tensions on the set so that they could finish the season with the intended arc. I don't know if they would have had that script written (at least in the form it aired in), finalized, or started production by the time Heather Graham was signed on in Mid-December (I saw that the episode didn't air until February '91), but I could imagine this being the last stand for Cooper/Audrey.  Of course, that doesn't really explain why they change Audrey's character so much by the end. But I guess by that point they were just trying to salvage the show and that was easiest way to get her to the forefront without the Cooper pairing.

EDIT: That's fascinating, and a bit depressing, that Fenn was so out-of-the-loop by then. Seems like that's a pretty good indicator of the backstage tension by that time. Also, very jealous that you've been able to meet her (more than once!)

 yeah, originally Audrey and Pete were the maid of honor and best man...

19. INT. GREAT NORTHERN DINING ROOM - LATE AFTERNOON

Before the fireplace, the wedding ceremony of DOUGIE and LANA BUDDING is in progress. Steady and easy, Dougie stands in a herringbone sports jacket and evergreen slacks. Lana, her full body alight with flows of white and pink chiffon, looks something like an exploding birthday cake.

The REVEREND performs the ceremony with a respectful air, seemingly dissembling his own skepticism. The best man is PETE MARTELL; the maid of honor AUDREY HORNE. Beyond them is a half-moon gallery seated in Great Northern dining chairs, with no separation based on family (hers is not there). Some of those seated are Truman, Andy, Hawk, LOG LADY, and a disgusted DWAYNE MILFORD, patting the hand of an older, blue-haired WOMAN. Her stone-face suggests she is less than thrilled with the ongoing nuptials.
 
and then...

CUT TO:

Awesome. So much more to the original dialogue than I would have imagined. Good thing they cut that for Evelyn Marsh and high school Nadine.

Is there an internet resource for those original scripts? Or is this the kind of stuff that I'd need to find in something like WiP? 

http://www.glastonberrygrove.net/texts/

I think that's all the second season scripts.

A short fling between the new Deputy Coop and the willing townsgirl, she with but a scant few flips of the calendar's pages left before the illegality thing times out. This even my straight-laced ubermoral self could have gotten behind. Perhaps a one-nighter before collective sanity resumes just to later underscore the tension of Audrey's undercover and capture at One-Eyed jacks.

I just realized that virginal Audrey was the GOOD girl in town. Comparatively speaking anyway. Don't wish the airplane scene ill, she was a grown girl after all and we were not trying to set up Audry's later suicide to have her join Harold Smith in the "woulda, coulda, didn't" waiting room of hell.

Consummation and consumption of Corn smut in consommée assuming that abongonza is the result of maize attacked by the pathogenic plant fungus, Ustilago maydis. Just a thought.

I don't agree with you when you say that "the degree of the relationship would have been irrevelant"...no, it would have been a big problem, you have cited Engels like a source about the rumor about the interference of LFB (despite Engels have clearly some problem to remember, correctly some details about the show, see the comment of Rickio Woods in the Dugpa board)

...but he have also said that Cooper and Audrey would have in a sexual relationship and to avoid illegal problem, she would have been in her 19 years, but in the show she have already 17/18 years old (she was in the same class that Laura in the pilot)....in this context, the age and the nature of the relation was very important and explain easily why Kyle M. has a problem why that.

I think Engels use just an excuse to justify a bad choice for their Cooper character. and indirectly try to justifiy some problems of the second season (nothing important imo)...I think Kyle have done a good decision to don't let them to completly destroy his character...the platonic romance was good but the writers seem to want something more than just a Lolita flirt....and that would have been a horrible mistake.

 About the rumors of LFB, Kyle etc....like you say, there are just speculation, we don't know for example if Engels have seen something himself or he have just repeated some rumors...

there are a real tension between the two actresses according Fenn, but she have never said that LFB was responsable for a change script...it was officially Kyle decision according him, Fenn, Lynch etc...so why to try to find some behind the scene drama ? Specially when the first peoples involved in these tensions don't have the same version that these rumors....

Engels himself say that both ladies were his friends but they doesn't have the same mentality...and there are also the comment of Fenn in her blog about how Kyle have flirted with her (and there are maybe more between them)...and you can clearly the reason of the tension between these two women (it's my opinion of course)...

but the end of the romance ? No I don't think it was because of FLB, but simply Kyle who try to have the best for his characters...

it's true that there were lot of hype around the relationship of Cooper/Audrey, probably more because of the taboo to have relationship between a FBI agent and high school girl than really to see a love story between two characters, imo it's more about the tentation of a hero...to change that would have killed the main character of the show.

 Again, we don't know when Kyle have taken this decision, I think that it was just before the famous bed scene in early the first season...everything seem to indicate that it was in this moment the end of their potential romance and the begining of their frienship (with some sexual tensions)...so to accuse him of the problems about the second season is really too much.