Oh dear. How could this be? In Toronto?? In Canada??? Terrorism arrests? Oh my. I'm sure there's a logical explanation. I'll be waiting to hear from their defense attorneys who will sort it all out. It couldn't possibly be the way it appears to be. That would be a a Rush to Judgment before hearing the Facts and we wouldn't want to do That.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I'm just amazed that the Canadian police in a joint operation with their wimpy, anti-war, liberal government agencies could handle shutting down a major terrorist plot, much less without recording their citizens phone calls and granting other special powers to big government. They can't possibly be equipped to handle large scale situations such as this. I don't think they even need a seperate department for Homeland security if you can believe that. BTW did they issue a condition of "high", "extreme", or code "red" for a chance of terrorist activity before the incident?

 R_Flagg

This is an interesting article that has some early explanations of HOW the bust was achieved. Lest we leap to judgment too swiftly.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Hey, CCC, have you finished that book you were reading yet?  Answers within.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Umm, ah, yeah. That one.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I'm just amazed that the Canadian police in a joint operation with their wimpy, anti-war, liberal government agencies could handle shutting down a major terrorist plot, much less without recording their citizens phone calls and granting other special powers to big government. They can't possibly be equipped to handle large scale situations such as this. I don't think they even need a seperate department for Homeland security if you can believe that.

May very well be true, but one thing that is for sure true, US was providing some intelligence to Canada to help with hte arrest and case against these guys. Could it be possible that without US intelligence that Canada would not have been able to make these arrests? I dunno, but I do know that the US was watching two guys who have ties with these 17 men...

From the Canadian Press

Canada's largest counterterrorism operation grabbed the spotlight in the United States on Saturday, where the FBI said two men from Georgia had visited some of the 17 alleged terrorists arrested north of the border.

FBI Special Agent Richard Kolko said there's "no imminent threat" to Americans from the Canadian case. But U.S. authorities have been co-operating for some time and providing information.

Court documents allege that Syed Ahmed, a 21-year-old student at the Georgia Institute for Technology and Ehsanul Sadequee, 19, who are now in custody, travelled to Toronto from Atlanta in March 2005 to meet "like-minded Islamic extremists."

Kolko said he couldn't reveal who they met with or if any of the men are related to each other.

The FBI contends Ahmed told authorities that Sadequee and the others "discussed strategic locations in the United States suitable for a terrorist strike, to include oil refineries and military bases."

"They also plotted how to disable the global positioning system in an effort to disrupt military and commercial communications and traffic," says a court affidavit.

The affidavit alleges the group "developed a plan to receive military training at one of the several terrorist-sponsored training camps" and that Ahmed travelled to Pakistan in an attempt to get trained.

Ahmed was arrested in Atlanta in March and has pleaded not guilty to charges of material support for terrorism, which carries a maximum sentence of 15 years.

Sadequee was arrested in April in Bangladesh and is accused of making false statements in connection with a terrorism investigation, which carries a maximum eight-year sentence.

A U.S. Justice Department release says Sadequee told authorities he travelled alone to Canada and stayed with his aunt in Toronto.

But authorities allege Sadequee went with Ahmed and "stayed with an individual with whom they were conspiring concerning travel to terrorist camps."

"(They) met with three subjects of an FBI international terrorism investigation and discussed strategic locations in the United States suitable for a possible terrorist strike," the release says.

"As always, we will work with our international partners to review any intelligence gathered and will conduct any appropriate investigation," said Kolko.

Russ Knocke, a spokesman for the U.S. Homeland Security Department, said Secretary Michael Chertoff phoned Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day on Saturday to talk about the arrests.

The U.S. department had no direct involvement in the case, (JORDAN'S NOTE - always love that keyword in there "direct" which means that Homeland Security may have had indirect involvement, otherwise they would've said NO involvmenent) he said, and is not calling for any elevated security measures.

"We are in daily co-ordination and dialogue with our Canadian counterparts," said Knocke. "We're lucky to have a robust partnership that mitigates many of the threats we face. We have to continue to work together to shut down those vulnerabilities."

American media organizations played the story prominently, noting the proximity of the Canadian border.

Several also noted that the so-called millennium bomber Ahmed Ressam, who was convicted of conspiracy to detonate a suitcase bomb at Los Angeles International Airport, was stopped by U.S. authorities after entering Washington state from Canada.

---------- 

Since the US does keep an eye on international phone calls involving terrorists, could it be that one of those calls came from any of the men involved here and may have helped Canada? GASP!!!  Purely speculation, but totally possible.

Jordan .

Hmmm, has anyone noticed that our resident Canadians are, dare I say -- suspiciously -- missing in action lately???  I'm not connecting any dots or anything like that.  But hmmm. I'm not rushing to judgment either.  And I'm definitely not saying that just because they are Canadians they're terrorists.  I'm sure 99% of the Canadians are NOT anything of the kind, but still...

Don't you sometimes wonder if the 17 terrorist arrests are just the Tip of the Ole Iceberg??? 

Show yourselves Jamie and Danwhy! 

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Jordan, I know the U.S. and Canada work together on intelligence operations and I hope they continue to do so. I am trying to convince Susan to recommend me for membership in the National Sarcasm Society. I believe she is a well respected member. Anyway, thanks for the additional info on what went on behind the scenes.

I still believe that the department of homeland security is a waste of tax dollars and was merely a political stunt to make people feel safe after the CIA and goverment failed to protect us on 9/11. I believe between the US military, state and local police, the FBI, and the CIA, they should be able to handle national security. That is their job and we should expect them to carry out their responsibilies. I would rather see our government put the proper people in charge of these agencies rather than create an unnecessary new department and waste even more money in bureaucratic red tape. To me that seems like the conservative way to go.

R_Flagg

R_Flagg, your ship has come in!  Having proven yourself worthy (like we care..), you are hereby promoted to provisional status in the National Sarcasm Society, pending official approval at our upcoming National ConFab.  I'll see if I can pull a few strings for you to make it happen.  As if.   I've been reserving that little photo just waiting for the perfect opportunity, btw!  Tee hee!

Some stunt that Department of Homeland Security, huh?  Worked beyond those Bushies' wildest expectations!  

Myself, I have a different view.  I think the nation is mired in partisan politics (nothing new) and hand-tied by bureaucracy.  Having over-sized, under-effective offices of this or that come as no surprise to me.  It is the constant attempt to TRY to fix these overly large groups of humans along with all the push-pull of our government officials on either side of the aisle who think they can do better if the job were solely theirs -- (that's all vague but I'm hot and on my way to the market -- 100+ degrees and my thinking goes wacko) --  that makes the CIA and all the rest of them less result oriented. Remember how our main main George Friedman has explained why his Stratfor Group of some hundred or so intelligence gatherers in some 70 key countries was what made their results so much more impressive.  (He claims 80%)  It's so much less unwieldy. 

Of course those departments are a waste of tax payer money.  As it ever was.  BUT once in a while, maybe something works. 

It's all too big.  Kinda like the LA Unified School Disaster.  I mean District.  Whaddaya gonna do? 

I'm grumpy today because it's been a CHAIN SAW SUNDAY combined with the last minute DEMOCRATIC PHONE CALLS & DOORBELL RINGING saying vote for so-and-so!  Yes, I am married to a registered one of those.  Just got a phone call telling us to vote for some hyphenated gal for state assembly who is backed by the Sierra Club AND Martin Sheen!  Does it get any better than that?  Yes.  Chain saws.  The Republicans don't even bother calling or dropping by in our neighborhood considering it a lost cause. 

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

"I still believe that the department of homeland security is a waste of tax dollars and was merely a political stunt to make people feel safe after the CIA and goverment failed to protect us on 9/11."

I agree with you there. Never felt like we needed DHS, and if everyone remembers, Bush didn't think we needed one either. That was one of the things he signed up for well after the fact and got criticized for it later on  (for not jumping on board). DHS was totally and completely a Congressional invention.  DHS is like the IRS - waste of money :)

Jordan .

Now back on topic -- TERRORIST ARRESTS IN CANADA -- the blokes were arraigned with a group of relatives present. Here's a few of the family members arriving at court...

Not the guy with the gun. The ladies in black. Snappy get-ups. Sexy hands.

HERE'S a thumbnail sketch of the suspects. Basically it seems like they were all pretty much "nice normal" guys who liked to play basketball and none of their family nor their neighbors would have ever guessed they were aspiring terrorists.

I'm trying hard to understand the draw. What draws young men to Islamism? I think I get it somewhat. Here's the way it seems to me. To be a serious practitioner of Islam requires a lot of time. There are a lot of rules. For those of you would quickly disagree by saying the same is true of "all religions," I would respond by saying I don't think you've looked closely enough at Islam in comparison to other major faiths.

For example, one of the basics -- five times a day prayer. Let's say that alone is the extent of your practicing your religion. You are awake say 16-18 hours a day and FIVE times -- every 3 hours or so -- you are taking a break from whatever it is you're doing to pray. That doesn't allow you any prolonged segments of time to stay focused on the work at hand. You are shifting over to commune with God like clockwork. In Islamic countries there are actual Calls to Prayer on public loudspeakers. Hard to ignore. Once you finish one, the next prayer session is right around the corner. That alone seems to be very all consuming if that were the only demand made of adherents.

But as a regular reader of Islam Online, I'm familiar with the extensive set of rules and regulations for everything from washing your hands, lending or borrowing money, wearing nail polish, shaving, interaction with non-Muslims, organ or blood donations, socks (!), not to mention the ever popular subject of "What exactly is a suicide?" The answer to that question allows plenty of wiggle room when it comes to the so-called "suicide bomber." Within the "Ask the Scholar" feature of Islam Online, you have a group of Muslim clerics who answer questions and may not necessarily agree. There is no Grand International Mufti on High who is the final word either. That leaves the path wide open for a variety of Koranic interpretations of what's acceptable according to each scholar's view of "What Would Allah Do?"

So, if nothing else, Islam -- and Islamism, its hardcore extremist cousin -- are all-encompassing if one is to be truly committed. What I really think may be the larger problem is the lack of a counterdraw away from Islamist ideology. A West without its own distinct religious philosophy to counter balance Islam, is the loser. Secular humanism is just too damn squishy and as Jazz once described it, it comes from the heads of guys in turtlenecks cogitating in an intellectual ether. (I can't remember Jazz's exact words but that was the essence)

Throw in the coup de grace -- the final societal end that almost all Muslims would agree upon -- Sharia as the law of the land, and the walls come tumbling down in my mind at least. Which walls? The walls of a society such as that found in Canada and throughout the West, where the rule of law imposed by the state is not respected in the same way as the law of Sharia. When these laws become oppositional, who loses?

But what I think is the DRAW to young men is STRUCTURE. A secular comparison might be the ne'er do well teenager who messes up in school, drops out, squabbles with his family then goes from lousy minimum wage job to another lousy minimum wage job. He feels out of sorts with society -- adrift and asea -- but then decides to... Join the Marines! At first blush, this seems wacky. A guy who couldn't follow the minimal rules laid out by school and family chooses to become a member of a group where he will have no choices to make for himself being totally lorded over by rules for everything from how you stand, how you wear your hair, how you speak, and when to go to bed and when to get up. How to make your bed, how to tie your shoes and how to address your superiors. WHY? Structure. I suppose it offers a sense of order to mental chaos. Safety. There are known rules and all comply. You know what to expect.

None of this would matter so much if it weren't for the fact that Islam is self-described as the fastest growing religion and already claims some 1/5 of the world's population. If only 1% fit the "extremist" category, that's more than 100,000,000. How much concern is too much? How much is not enough?

This isn't a completely well thought out analysis but it is A thought. Anyone else have one? What am I missing?

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Obtusity Alert!  Does not compute! 

Black dresses?  White dresses?  Messages from god and celibate child molesters? 

Lo siento.  Non comprendo.  Mas, por favor.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I've had twenty-four hours and I'm still at a loss. Here are a couple of guesses:

1. Michael Jackson in Bahrain -- but who wears a white dress? Janet?

2. Elizabeth Smart's Utah kidnappers but they weren't celibate.

3. Madonna at the Kabbalah center?

Now I'm stretching. And it's still off topic. No thoughts on my Grand Unifying Theory of the Day?

UNLESS, maybe something happened here!

MAYBE everyone agrees with me!

Could it be?

No, I doubt it.

Susan

But suddenly something else comes to me in my heat-induced fuzzy mind -- is it all about the Shiites and the Sunis and their battle over which REALLY represents the messenger of God? (PBUH)  But, then there's the celibacy thing.  Nah.  Can't be. 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

The Marines example is maybe on the right track. 

What about the straight-edge subculture?  No surprise that it is popular in Utah?  Hard to imagine why an American teen would forego caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, all drugs, SEX!, commit to being totally vegan and only listening to a certain kind of music, all for secular reasons.  But then at their concerts they seem to go into an ecstasy which is easily comparable to religious transcendence.

A straight-edge suicide bomber??  Maybe I am way ahead of the curve on this one.  Remember where you heard it first!

No worries, Erwin!  I think I'll have to wait for Jazz to translate.

Right now, I'm having trouble with Andrew's language but perhaps we can sort it out.

"Straight edge?"  I first thought of the single blade razor and then the straight line (or whatever they're called) roller skates of the day.  But I think this is not what you have in mind.  Straight as in "straight-laced?"  Or something else?

I just came up with another thought though.  Columbine.  Or all those sleepy small southern towns with "Boys Gone Wild With Guns."  Another manifestation of too much testosterone and too little structure while all of the world plays out before your eyes with TV, film, news, IPODs, and video games.  One big angry jumble of appeal to small town ennui?  I don't know. 

But I do know this.  IF the boys who fall prey to any of these potential downfalls can make it past a certain age without acting out, they're pretty much home free.  And if the number of them is limited to fewer rather than more, everyone can breathe a sigh of placid relief. 

It's just that I don't really have a good plan for how to act on it.  Nothing as good as the Muslim Clerics in London or Hamburg anyway. 

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Ah, but my dear, hoping and wishing for a turn to secular Euro-ism may be just that -- hopin' and wishin'. I think we need examples of just how well that's all working out for the Old Country. I just returned from an afternoon at the hair salon. In between beauty treatments, I was reading this new book I bought -- While Europe Slept -- which is one I think you might enjoy, Erwin. The author, Bruce Bawber, is an American who moved to the Netherlands in the 1990s and describes some interesting contrasts between American thinking and European (in particular Dutch) thinking in his time living abroad. It also describes how he came to appreciate America to a much greater extent from this experience. Much of this has to do with his observations of the unassimilated Muslim populations throughout all major cities of Europe. He contrasted the gray boxes and weed filled lots on the outskirts of Amsterdam as bleak holding tanks filled with multi-generational Muslim families maintaining their cultures, their language, their religion while expressing open disdain of the Dutch culture. Lots of good stuff about FGM, forced marriage, honor killings, sending European Muslim youth to study in places like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, and the like. Quite the bleak picture!

See the fact of the matter is, Europe hasn't made a grand success out of this movement of its Muslim immigrant population toward the joys of secular humanism. Au contraire, I might opine. In fact, I just did opine!

But I wasn't suggesting that the Muslims of Europe were about to convert to Christianity.  No.  I was only saying that I think what holds the opposition, if you will (and I think you will) together is secular humanism, which just doesn't seem hefty enough to counteract Islamic fundamentalism even in its European incarnation. 

Maybe you are the promising wave of the political future for the Dutch, Erwin. Maybe you can devise a plan for how this can be done. And I am only serious, btw. Were it possible, I'd be all over it like white on rice, as we say here in the New World.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

If you get a chance Susan, Wikipedia 'straight edge', and then towards the bottom of that article click on the 'hardline' link to read about 'fundamentalist straight edge' so to speak.  Towards the bottom of the hardline article, I think you will find something that interests you!

It is still my opinion that a secular and humanist society will eventually integrate any religious group, or at least the vast majority of them.  Okay, to this day the Amish and Hasidic societies survive, so probably pockets of fundamentalist Islam will survive too, but this opinion you have that the majority of Muslims are unable to integrate doesn't gel with my own experiences in this country (perhaps in France and The Netherlands it is different).  The super devout seemed the exception to the rule.  I met some wonderful people living in the Muslim quarter in Derby, and I used to get a lift to police headquarters for police training with a very nice 2nd generation Pakistani lad.  My downstairs neighbours invited me into their flat to phone a locksmith, I would help them carry their shopping from the car, and talk to their kids all the time, and the littlest one used to devoutly wear an England football shirt.  Pak foods where I shopped was full of all kinds of different nationalities and religions, plenty of white and Hindu people shopped there, and they blared the licentious pop hits of BBC Radio 1 all day.  There were even a couple of 'Muslims' who risked the eternal hellfire by drinking with me in my local pub.  I could talk to them about cricket all day long.

Okay, there were one or two things I saw in that neighbourhood that were not so cool - after 9-11 someone put up stickers on lampposts saying '9/11, a towering day in history', but a week later they were all scratched off, obviously by residents, not the council.

The  reason I am so wary of CONFRONTING Islam, is because European countries have sections of the white working class who would only too willingly take that as an invitation to persecute the people I just told you about.  What have they ever done wrong, and why should they suffer?  And how is it going to change the mind of someone in the fundamentalist mindset anyway?  It will only entrench their attitudes.

 Back on topic, here are some statistics from anti-terrorism arrests in Britain.----------erm, I can't find them right now.  But anyways, out of over 100 arrested, only less than half were ever even charged, and I think only about a third of those charged were convicted.  Sorry I can't find the correct numbers.

Two men arrested last week in London in an operation of 250 police constables that resulted in one of the suspects being shot have been released without charge. 

And your point is...?

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Maybe this article on Canada will require a Canadian response. 

  http://author.nationalreview.com/latest/?q=MjE5NQ==

And for balance here is the inevitable article on GITMO North.

( find it yourself )