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> Are you badass enough to weigh in on this?
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| 1. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:03 PM |
| herofix |
Are you badass enough to weigh in on this? |
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Something different for a change. And maybe, just maybe, a topic far more important and grounded in real life than the culture war discussion which seems to dominate all our political thought these days. On another forum I frequent, I came across this discussion probably 2 months ago, and it has crossed my mind many times since. The problem is that I know nothing really about economics, but the more one considers these things, economics is the real red meat issue behind nearly everything else, much like Marx said, and it seems clear to me that the invasion of Iraq is mainly motivated by economics, though I can't see how the events of September the 11th are. What I'm getting at, is that the matter of who holds wealth, and how, and why, is 95% what concerns governments, whether they are trying to redistribute it to the less wealthy, make sure it lands and stays in the pockets of them and their tribe, or what have you. Because my understanding of economics is so very limited, what I'd like to do is copy mostly verbatim a thread from that other forum. I have the permission of the thread instigator, Ironball, and I've told him I'll link to here when I've posted so that he can make more clear what I may have inadvertantly misrepresented either himself or via me if he can't be arsed to register for a new board. As it was my birthday on the 6th, and none of you got me anything, and Susan has refused to send me illegal chocalate through the post, I'd like to declare that it is my deepest held birthday wish that we can get a bit of discussion on this thread. I find this fascinating, and fascinatingly untalked about, and I am desperate to know more, from whichever viewpoint you may have. Even if you're like me, and don't know very much, say what your gut instinct on reading it is. Without further ado, I hope this brings you as many hours of contemplation as it did for me: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ironball: This is the truth about such things:
We live in a culture where the population demands services from the government which are unfundable. The government of the day is interested only in its own survival and will do anything, medicine or poison, to accede.
Significantly higher taxation is not viable. Not only is it overt and therefore politically unfashionable, it is also a sure recipe for economic decay, as companies (like Amazon) and individuals take their wealth and jobs abroad.
How, then, does the goverment manage it? It uses the hidden tax, aka inflation. The proper definition of inflation is 'inflation of the money supply'. Inflation of prices is merely a lagging symptom of a money supply gorged on increased government debt and a debased currency.
Current official inflation figures would be a joke if they weren't a disgrace. They are designed to pacify the masses while the cost of vital services rises 10-20% per year.
The government is at liberty to debase the currency because in the last few decades money has become backed by nothing but the ability to print paper. It is credit-expansionist because we are in the latter stages of, in economic terms, the 'Kondratieff cycle', just as we were in the late 1920s. The Kondratieff patterns dictate that debt ought to be washed out of an economy when it reaches unsustainable levels, eg Enron and so on.
However, unlike in the 1920s, there is much more scope for politicians to postpone (thus magnifying) the eventual collapse, since we no longer live in a world where each pound or dollar is backed by an amount of precious metal, and therefore the creation of debt and its monetization by the government (the printing of money from the ether to buy it up) is possible, at the cost of hyperinflation.
A side-effect of this dishonest government method of acceding to the wishes of the ignorant masses, is that able people are free to utilise the availability of vast, free, unbacked credit, to expand businesses and speculate intelligently - and to make a lot of money. But, since the credit is excessive, so too, ultimately, will be business capacity as it overtakes income and spending, and price valuations in asset sectors will explode to unsustainable levels as speculators efficiently measure finite resources higher and higher against than the liberally available toilet paper money they are valued in.
Hyperinflation is only really now starting to get going, and has been offset in part by the counterweight of sectorial deflation, eg in goods made by the Chinese.
When the wheels come off, there will be much fewer rich people than at present, just like in the 1920s. Until then, people who are economically literate and prepared to protect their wealth from the root cause (government-created inflation) will prosper as they shift their wealth to appreciating currencies and commodities; and the lives of the oblivious masses will become ever harder. Having said that, at some point a lot of commodities will collapse in value as well if we encounter a deflationary black hole.
Lest you (ie Pete) think the solution is to continue the free bar with paper money but to sanction the nasty speculators and businessmen, well the businessmen will sod off and make products and jobs elsewhere, and the speculators are the ones who stand a chance of keeping some wealth in this country by converting their notes into things which are going up globally rather than down.
As an aside, it was interesting to read of Vincent Cable's rightful criticism the other day of Gordon Brown's selling off of UK gold reserves at a historic low around 1999-2001. Gold was about $250 then; it is now $550. However, the muppet, who is the Lib Dem treasury spokesman, said that although he would have liked Gordon to have got a higher price (ie not the lowest inflation-adjusted price in decades), he agreed 'in principle' that diversifying currency reserves away from gold was 'the right thing to do'.
Since gold has risen $300 since then and may well go above $1000 in the next couple of years, I am going to go out on a limb here and say it was 'the most f*cking stupid thing to do'. Lucky for us that we did 'diversify', however. We now hold a balanced portfolio, chock full of US dollars which are going to be decimated when the Japs and Chinese finally bail on US treasuries, and we hold vastly less gold than France, Italy and Germany; I think we may have a little less than Austria, if that. Clearly there was an urgent need to 'diversify', aka to suppress the gold price by dumping UK reserves at that time.
Don't have any illusions that our politicians have any idea whatsoever about what they talking. They are ignorant, contemptible, incompetent scum who are going to lead this country into penury. An example of their ignorance is the appointment of the lionised Alan Greenspan to consult stupid Gordon. All very well, in that goldbug Alan wrote
http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html
in 1966 and said recently that he stands by it. But check out the last two paragraphs, which may well prove the most important thing you ever read in your life, and then check out Alan's record in office.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 2. Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:08 AM |
| herofix |
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stockwell pete wrote:
| Ironball, can I compliment you on an excellently written summmary.
Your knowledge of economics far surpasses mine . . . you seem to be saying that a massive economic crisis is approaching some time soon . . . presumably this will a global catastrophe on a par with the Wall Street Crash of 1929?
Roughly, what sort of time span do you envisage here? Ten Years? Longer? Shorter? What factors might mitigate against such a severe outcome?
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Ironball: Cheers Pete.
Put it this way: Stephen Roach, who is the chief economist at Morgan Stanley and a respected commentator in the financial press, has gone on record as saying that the USA 'has only a 10% chance of avoiding economic armageddon'.
I have mixed feelings about talking to you on this. You are just going to use it to rejoicingly develop your theories on capitalist breakdown... but it is going to be a complete nightmare for ordinary people living in the west.
Who knows when. Like I said, they have so many ways to juggle things about. For the last couple of years the US has been meeting its obligations by running vast deficits, and it has worked because it has been in the interests of the Chinese to keep buying the toilet paper America produces; otherwise their factory workers would have had no one to sell to and would be on the streets.
But we are coming to the end of that paradigm. The last few years have seen a massive run-up in the price of commodities, partly due to Asian demand, but principally due to the same credit expansion and currency debasement that caused the real estate bubble.
Finally, with gold over $500, Argentina and Russia have come out and indicated they will 'diversify' INTO gold (Vincent Cable should be stripped naked and thrown into the Thames while schoolchildren laugh, point and throw large stones) and in the last few weeks China and Japan, who hold vast piles of greenbacks, have made discreet noises about the same thing - Japan said yesterday it was going to increase its supply of strategic metals for the first time in 20 years. Nb the price of gold is probably the best leading indicator of inflation - and hence has been heavily manipulated (suppressed) by co-ordinated dumping of goverment reserves over the last few years, though they are running out now.
Japan is where it is happening really. They have endured more than a decade of crippling deflation and are only just now emerging. Real estate prices fell up to 90% in Tokyo. The implication of Japan emerging is massive. For years now they have been running zero interest rates and free credit; essentially, they have been supplying liquidity to the rest of the world in the form of the 'carry trade' - you borrow free money in Japan and invest it for a yield in western currencies or assets. But the cycle has ended, and Japanese interest rates are going to head up in a little while. And when they do, there is going to be one hell of a sell-off of all these currencies and assets which have been yielding on the back of free yen. It has already happened in Iceland, which together with NZ was a favoured destination for the carry trade. It is called 'the unwinding of the carry trade' and it is going to be ugly.
So that could spark things off. But what is underlying it all is that the USA is vastly, vastly in debt, and unlike the average debtor, can only get away with it because it has a machine that can just print off bits of paper to pay off the debt.
Are you starting to understand how ridiculous fiat (unbacked paper) currency is?
At least, it doesn't appear ridiculous while others are prepared to accept paper money in the belief that it will hold its value and act as a medium of exchange. But after a while of accepting more and more of this toilet paper, which naturally enough is sinking in value against things which are more scarce (like gold, the properties of which are far more suitable for storing wealth - eg no politician has yet discovered alchemy), at some point the Chinese and Japs are going to follow the Argies and Russkies into protecting the value of their wealth.
It won't happen until it is resolutely in their interest. When the US consumer is finally too overstretched to continue keeping Chinese workers in their factories, the Chinese will no longer have the incentive to keep the US economy afloat. But they hold so much dollars that it won't be easy to ditch some without the rest depreciating. They have been trying to burn up some up til now by buying up South American and Canadian energy resources.
It's a case of who blinks first. When the rush out of sh*t money going down into real money going up begins, then it will be like the proverbial 'fire!' in a movie theatre. The US may have no choice but to raise interest rates much higher to try to protect the dollar, and the effect would be to annihilate the US housing market and thence the US economy which is basically run off people extracting equity from the illusory value of their homes.
This is all modern context. The two basic ruinous principles underlying it are a credit bubble (which we had in the late 1920s) and unbacked paper currency (which we didn't). To read a bit about the Kondratieff Wave (you'd like Kondratieff - he was a Russian Stalin had put away), check out
http://www.financialsense.com/transcriptions/Gordon.htm
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 3. Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:05 AM |
| herofix |
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In response to a poster saying the selling off of gold reserves was a 'non-story'........... Ironball: If you could draw a price graph for gold from 1980 to date it would be a very deep V shape starting at $850, bottoming at $250 and now touching $730. Brown sold off half this nation's gold reserves at $250, a price he partly created by announcing the dumping in advance.
This was not some random asset, it was gold reserves which are basically the asset of last resort, the money you keep in the jar to buy food with when you have no money left.
Yes, he diversified into the euro and the yen. I can assure you that the euro and the yen have depreciated massively against gold since the dumping - almost as much as the dollar.
The statement that 'nobody argues that it was the wrong thing to do' is reliant on the fact that most people are utterly ignorant of the Treasury's negligence and incompetence. Government abuse of paper money will continue and the price of gold will rise, imho, way beyond £1,000 as the financial standing of the global economy becomes ever more shaky. The reason these and all paper currencies have depreciated is that governments are printing more and more paper money to cover their spiralling debts.
It as at a juncture like that that a nation desperately needs to rely on its historic economic wealth to support its currency. Unfortunately ours will not be there as it was dumped for political and ideological reasons, out of contempt for traditional economics, and for a laughable price.
I would say that while this issue is less 'sexy' than ranting on about Chavez, strikes, the BNP or whatever, it is easily the most important story on this messageboard at the moment. As the article says, the losses so far could cover NHS problems being discussed elsewhere on this board several times over.
And the losses so far are nothing compared to the losses which remain to be realised, when gold reaches its inflation-adjusted $850 level of 1980, which in today's terms is about £2,250. Allowing for likely continued inflation the price will most likely overshoot to above $3,000 - and when it does it will not be a footnote to a booming economy.
The other case is that the world experiences crippling deflation and the price of gold temporarily falls. In that event it is probably just as desperate not to be holding gold, as cross-defaults, exchange controls and other ructions in the global economy will mean hlding gold rather than paper will remain vital.
I am sure Gordon Brown is ecstatic at how much of a non-story people regard it. My guess is that when the price rises sufficiently that the dumping at $250 becomes an acute daily embarrassment to him he will institute punitive taxation on private gold holdings or even confiscation. Whether or not you are blase about totalitarian infringement the ultimate effect would be to remove the holding and the motivation to acquire genuine economic wealth from the private citizenry who engine this economy, to the same corrupt, incompetent feckless idiots who pissed away centuries of security in the first place for $250.
Vote Tory, vote Lib-Dem, vote Green, vote BNP, vote Plaid Cymru - vote anyone but Gordon Brown. The most arrogant, incompetent, shameless fool ever to reach power in this country, who has no intention of reversing his policy.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 4. Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:07 AM |
| herofix |
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Again, last one: No, I am not suggesting that the reserves would have been sold now to fund the NHS, just referring to the point in the article that the losses thus far are four times the NHS deficit.
The price of gold in January 1970 was $35 which was the fixed price for convertibility into US dollars as set up at Bretton Woods in 1944.
The first two graphs at this link http://www.zealllc.com/2002/goldoil2.htm show (1) the nominal price relationship of 1970's $35 to 2001's $250 and (2) the 'real' or inflation-adjusted price relationship, which shows the price Brown sold at to be a 30 year low going backwards and imho an all time low going forwards.
See what a sh*t, criminally, treasonably negligent act it was? Half of this country's historic wealth reserves - dumped at a car boot sale price. I read a lot of investment analysis, and this country and Brown in particular is a standing joke amongst those who know what they are talking about. Worse still, he is still at it - US deficit figures released only in the last few days show the latest capital inflows from abroad into the US to service US debt are only breaking even because the UK is now stepping into the breech vacated by the Japs who are desperately reducing their US treasury bill holdings; the UK is actually stepping up its purchases of doomed US treasuries for political reasons and probably also through Keynesian, or more accurately Canuteian contempt for principles of sound money. This country's wealth is being dissipated through the stupidity, corruption and incompetence of its elected and unelected officials.
New Labour is buying new lamps and giving our old lamps away.
Anyway, back on the ranch, when the frogs figured out in the early 1970s that the US was, as now, debasing the dollar (printing far too much in proportion to gold reserves) by pursuing their guns and butter policy, De Gaulle demanded conversion of France's US dollar holdings into gold.
Nixon didn't mind printing up lots of toilet paper greenbacks and sending them to France, but he blanched at the thought of draining Fort Knox of real money (gold) and shipping it across the pond under the terms of gold convertibility ("I promise to pay the bearer on demand" and all that), so he slammed the gold window shut.
No more convertibility, and the world went into a new age of pure, unbacked fiat (paper) currencies. At last, a brave new Matrix, sorry, era, where governments could print up wild amounts of promissory notes and allow the banks to issue crazy amounts of debt from thin air because none of it was backed any longer by the discipline and the security of being wholly or fractionally backed by real money (gold).
There is nothing you will read on these boards more important than this event and nothing more empowering for the rest of your life than understanding the consequences. Maybe 1 person out of 1000 in this country properly grasps it. It's the ultimate non-story - in the Keyser Soze sense of a non-story. For you to grasp it, click on this link, put the figure 1 in the first box and hit 'Calculate'.
http://www.projects.ex.ac.uk/trol/scol/calcoluh.htm
All you have to do to understand what kind of Matrix we live in (thanks to the invisible tax of inflation) is to look at what happened from the early 1970s.
And you will see that we are in uncharted territory and headed most likely off a cliff.
I pity people who earn money and think that it is enduring wealth. I pity people who buy assets which 'appreciate' and think they are sorted, oblivious to the kind of macroeconomic shocks that we are risking, and the sudden deflation of their security. I pity people who do not understand that the infantile vote bribery of modern democracy has placed the ordinary citizen on a treadmill the speed of which accelerates with every bank note printed to pay for public sector final salaries and NHS pencil-pushers.
By the middle of this century you are going to wish you were Indian or Chinese.
There is nothing better suited to destroy a society than the destruction of its currency.
Lest you think that your pay rise or income will always keep up with the price of a travelcard or the cost of council tax, remember that when the panic comes, currencies which are overextended and backed by insufficient reserves and resources will depreciate sharply, importing much more inflation in the form of the increased cost of goods, services and raw materials sourced from abroad.
What to do to protect oneself? The last two paragraphs of this article I have referred to before give you imho the answer
http://www.gold-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html
but they also reveal the flaw, which is the risk of state interference. And of course there is always the risk that the course the world has been steered in over the last three decades, quite some way due to the author of the article, who sold out or perhaps was seduced by an Icarus-like belief in his ability to fend off the Kondratieff Winter
( http://www.financialsense.com/transcriptions/Gordon.htm )
means that we may yet see crippling deflation in all asset classes, including gold.
Sorry to repeat some of the links, but in case you hadn't seen them before I think they really are worth looking at.
Pps all this is just my opinion. I ain't no investment advisor and you would be a mug to take any action based upon my views or the information I have referenced. So don't. But I hope it is an interesting and worthwhile point of view.
More at websites like www.321gold.com , www.financialsense.com , www.goldseek.com , www.silverstrategies.com , www.gold-eagle.com etc!
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 5. Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:18 AM |
| nuart |
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The first and third I only read a couple paragraphs of before I decided that life is too short for that crap. I won't read the Kos and I won't read the yin to the Kos's yang. Hateful shite. But to answer the question posed, "F*** yeah!" Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 6. Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:12 AM |
| nuart |
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...but(terfingers) seriously, I have to read it first. That will take some time. When my eyes saw words like "Marx" and "redistribution" I choked up a little. But I will give it a shot. Later. Right now, I've got some interesting stuff to post from the WaPo on the Haditha "massacre." So called. Susan, who shall return
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 7. Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:12 AM |
| herofix |
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Pretty please, for my birthday?
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 8. Monday, June 12, 2006 7:06 AM |
| jordan |
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Happy BDAy! Here's your present. Hmmmm......interesting. I hate rehashing stuff I've said previously, but I think I shall now. I have stated 3 things in the past: 1) The stock market of the late 90s was a lie. The economy of the late 90s was a lie. Both were created based soley on lies as we now know from companies (not just Enron, etc) who inflated their stocks to make it look better than what it was. Many companies did this in the US, and if you remember, they were all given the go ahead to send in revised books into the government at one point in early 2000 or 2001. It was false growth which is why the bubble blew, and exploded hard. 2) I've also said that consumer debt in the US is a huge problem, and the everything has to come back to roost. Part of the problem of economic downturns is because as consumer debt increases, they have a harder time putting money back into the economy. And as we know, consumer spending IS the key to the economy. 3) And finally as a Conservative, I've been considerably concerned with the amount of spending by the government. And frankly, it's time we start pulling back on many of the programs that we have so that we can lower the debt. As ironball says - raising taxes is unviable because it is economic decay - who cares if it's fashionable or not. Throw in consumer debt, they have less to spend. Increase taxes, they have even less to spend and it's a huge mess. Great example is the slowing of the economy because consumers have less money to spend because of oil prices. A rise in oil prices is damaging, and when the federal government is taking more profit than oil companies with each dollar of oil, then we have a problem. I understood only about half of what Ironball was saying, but what I did understand, I tended to agree with him in many respects. I got loss around the gold discussion.
The economy (for years now) is not backed by gold or any other mineral. That can be (and may be) a problem in the future. When the only backing is the word of a government (does that scare anyone?), and that govertnment is in debt, then their word becomes less and less reliable as debt grows. So in other words - would you ever loan a guy $500 if he already owes you $5000 - even though he keeps promising he's good for it? That's kind of teh situation we are in with govt with the currency is not backed with gold. If anyone takes a few minutes to listen to conservative radio, you'll hear advertisements for purchasing gold because of the gold standard, and unlike paper currency, it will still be worth something in the future. Government has overreached in a number of things. They have overreached in social programs by trying to offer incentives and safety nets for public and business. There's nothing wrong with trying to create growth, but some programs are not there to be progressive, but rather end up being far from creating progress. These wasteful departments and programs only increase the overall debt and offer nothing of redeeming value in order to keep governemtn and the public moving on all cylinders. So until govertnment decides that it needs to hold back and reduce spending, adn cut programs, then debt will only increase which at some point will cause economic downspin because banks will no longer be able back a government and their trust to pay back.
Jordan .
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| 9. Monday, June 12, 2006 8:01 AM |
| herofix |
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Thank you, Jordan Did you understand this idea of inflation being a 'hidden tax'? It seems to suggest what many of us may be able to support anecdotally, that we may appear to be on more money than in the past, but we seem to have less to spend. What we do spend is often on credit, and it seems that could be the bulldozer that knocks down the comfortable illusion we're in.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 10. Monday, June 12, 2006 8:22 AM |
| jordan |
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Actualy, that was the thing I didnt' understand - "inflation as a hidden tax." I understand most of everything else that he was suggesting, but I'm not sure about inflation as a hidden tax. I don't see how inflation generates more revenue to teh govt. So I came across this from Wikipedia:
An inflation tax is the economic disadvantage suffered by holders of cash and cash equivalents in one denomination of currency due to the effects of inflation, which acts as a hidden tax that subtracts value from assets.
When governments raise revenue by printing notes and bills they increase the amount of money available in the economy. Through a change in real money balances this causes inflation. Financing expenditure in this way is called seignorage and the effect of increasing the money supply and causing the holders of money to pay an inflation tax is the most obvious cost of inflation.
If the annual inflation rate in the United States is 5%, one dollar will buy $1 worth of goods and services this year, but only $0.95 the next year; this has the same effect as a 5% annual tax on cash holdings.
Governments are almost always net debtors (that is, most of the time a government owes more money than others owe to it). Inflation reduces the relative value of previous borrowing, and at the same time it increases the amount of revenue from taxes. Thus it follows that a government can improve the debt-to-revenue ratio by employing inflationary measures.
However, as the saying goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If the government continues to sell debt, by borrowing money in exchange of debt papers, these debt papers will be affected by inflation: they will lose their value, and therefore they will become less attractive for creditors, until the government will not find any willing to buy debt.
An inflation tax does not necessarily involve debt emission. By simply emitting currency (cash), a government will induce liquidity and may trigger inflationary pressures. Taxes on consumer spending and income will then collect the extra cash from the citizens. Inflation, however, tends to cause social problems (e. g., when income increases more slowly than prices).
I'm going to need to do mroe reading on inflation tax before I feel comfortable in really responding.
Jordan .
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| 11. Monday, June 12, 2006 11:47 AM |
| herofix |
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I'm still not sure I get it. I am trying but this does not come easily to me.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 12. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 8:40 AM |
| herofix |
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Ironball elucidates his idea of inflation as a hidden tax: Let's assume happy meals are the only thing you live for. They are the only reason you get up in the morning and go to work and endeavour to earn money......
If you earn $100 per month and can afford 20 happy meals at $5 per happy meal, then if the government taxes you at 30% you can now only afford 14 happy meals. And then if the government wants to raise more money in a way that is not obvious and which you will put down to magic 'organic inflation' or blame on 'greedy corporations' rather than the government, it will operate a system of borrowing, printing money and banking sleight of hand all of which has the effect of providing the government with funds and inflating the overall national money supply.
In theory if a $1gazillion total money supply gives rise to a $5 happy meal price, then an increase to a total of $4gazillion money supply ought to cause the price to rise to $20, but in practice it may only rise to say $10, with the difference reflected in lost sales, increased costs for McDonalds and a plummeting share price.
But with the price at $10, and the government having successfully found more cash to fund its spending, you can now only afford 7 happy meals per month, and it now appears that the government is responsible for depriving you of only 3 through direct taxation.
It is no wonder people don't get the notion that inflation is the hidden tax - because the media mistake PRICE inflation (eg the rise in cost of a happy meal), which is a symptom only, for real inflation, which is the cause of price inflation, which is the inflation by the government of the money supply in order to raise funds for spending.
There is no such thing as 'organic inflation', there are merely organic ways in which a government-orchestrated inflation of the money supply filters through into higher prices.
Think of it like you sitting on the beach with a ten dollar note in your pocket and wanting to buy a seven dollar ice cream. The government is also sitting on the beach, with four dollars in its pocket, and it can either steal three dollars from you directly to buy itself an ice cream, or it can take its printing press out of its bag and print some ten dollar notes from scrap paper. It buys an ice cream and gives the other ten dollar notes away to some tramps to make itself popular. They go to the ice cream van at the same time as you and you discover there are now only a couple of ice creams left! You and the tramps end up bidding up the price of the ice cream and you have to pay more for it - because there is too much money chasing the same amount of goods. Alternatively, the ice cream seller has a bunch of ice creams to sell but he has had to put prices up to nine dollars from the start because he is now competing with the tramps for electricity and water.
Since you have only seven dollars hard luck. You will have to settle for a glass of (metered) water when you get home. Fortunately, over time as prices inexorably rise you will yourself end up as a tramp and can hang around the government on the beach waiting for a handout so that you can buy a forty dollar ice cream.
In the end, the economy consists of the government sitting on the beach with its printing press, surrounded by millions of tramps fighting for handouts to buy water. The ice cream van has driven off to Cromer where he prefers 2 units of Cromer money to 10,000 units of yours.
Welcome to socialism.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 13. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:23 AM |
| jordan |
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I must be missing something still that I can't put my finger on. Let's say that I make $100,000/yr after taxes and everything else the govt (federal and state) steal from me. now let's say that today the government is printing 1 million dollar bills, but then decides tomorrow to double its printing and now does 2 million. Just because the printing doubled, I don't get doubled in salary. I still only have 100,000 to spend, so I'm not sure if I am grasping the beach analogy. I can go and find another job that can double my salary, but that still doesn't help because that job would be there whether or not the printed money doubled or not. So in other words, if govt decides to double its printing bills, it doesn't help any of us because we are still stuck to a certain amount of money each year unless we change jobs or get raises (or not). The beach analogy only works if the govt is 100% socialist and is the one person handing out all money - but that's not the case in a capitalist society and that's where I am having a problem. So is the beach example something like - the more money people have the higher the prices go? That seems to be the correct summary. But I see a problem with that which I will get to in a moment. Ironball also stated that there is no such thing as "organic inflation." But doesn't the current rise in oil prices prove that incorrect? A rise in oil prices affects many aspects of society and business. The cost of trucking those Happy Meals from the McDonald's office to your local restaurant goes up because of oil prices, thus they pass the cost onto consumers. Of course the question is why is the price high? That has more to do with supply of oil, and the demand for it, rather than how much money a govt is printing. The current price per barrell has less to do with current economic actions made by a govt, and more to do with OPEC and demand in other parts of the world. (Now granted, the policies of the US govt the past 30 years helped increase prices, including the high taxes on gas - but I'm talking about current economic policies right now.) Now that a moment has passed, let me return to the problem I mentioned regarding the beach analogy. The other part I am confused by is that people's worth in society does not equal the amount of money the govt actually pritns (at least I think this is the case). So in other words, let's say that we add up the amount of all individuals in a country, and we get teh sum of $100 billion. But if we were to add up the actual printed dollar amount out there, we may only find $50 billion. It's the same thing that if you go to a bank, they actually don't have real dollar amounts sitting in that bank. We've all heard of situations in which people run to the bank to get their money, but the bank runs out of money and has to close their doors. So in other words, there's more "credit" out there than there is real dollars. We don't actually have money, we only have what the bank says we have in their database. Because of this, I question how much govt really has control when it comes to the hidden inflation tax because our economy is based more on the notion of what is in a ledger or database (credit) versus what we actually have in our little hands (printed money). Govt doesn't have control of the credit amount which would seem the key esp as we use real printed money less and less. I'll be honest - I use my debit card more often than I use actual cold cash. so if the hidden tax via inflation is based on the amount of money a govt prints and puts out there, then wouldn't going to a paper-less currency stop inflation??? My answer - of course not. I understand the theory that is being put forth, but I'm having a hard time grasping the reality of it.
Jordan .
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| 14. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:39 AM |
| nuart |
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Money, schmoney. It's all about confidence not gold. There's too much voodoo for me. One may assume there's something real and firm and tangible about money/economics since it has numbers and stuff. But I don't think it's real at all. You can see that I am deeply knowledgable on the subject. It's not Butterfingers, but I too have a gift for you, Andrew! You may be interested in Niall (love him!) Ferguson's latest LA Times piece which touches on a few of your concerns. Read it and tell me, do you find yourself nodding in agreement? And, isn't this better than Butterfingers?
Susan Niall Ferguson: Gordon Brown's voodoo economics Britain's economy is just like America's, minus the entrepreneurs and growth. Niall Ferguson
June 12, 2006
SUMMER IS the time of year Americans are most likely to visit Britain, and Britons to visit America. Last week I bumped into one of my Harvard students in the West End. Meanwhile, Gordon Brown, chancellor of the exchequer and prime minister in waiting, is looking forward to his annual sojourn to Martha's Vineyard.
London on a sunny June evening is an alluringly vibrant place. The crowds spilling out of the pubs are abuzz with anticipation of the World Cup, hopeful of English victories.
No wonder Brown wishes he were in the United States, the one place in the world that will largely ignore the next two weeks of 24/7 soccer. As a Scotsman, Brown finds himself in a quandary because Scotland failed to qualify for the finals. He may insist that he is supporting England. But because the rest of his countrymen north of the border will back anyone — even Trinidad and Tobago — against the "auld enemy," no one believes a word of it.
Brown has other reasons for preferring the States in the summer. He loves to proclaim his admiration for the U.S. economy, lacing his speeches with phrases such as "supply-side dynamism."
American visitors to London can be forgiven for buying the claim that Brown has turned Britain into USA Lite. In many ways, central London has become a kind of low-rise Manhattan. The best restaurants are thronged by young men whose net worth is in direct proportion to the casualness of their attire. (If you're wearing a tie, your hedge fund must be in trouble.)
Yet appearances can deceive. Just as Brown sees only Martha's Vineyard in the summer, and therefore has no inkling of the misery of Massachusetts in mid-winter, so Americans who visit only London know nothing of this country as a whole. For the capital — that strange hybrid of Londhattan and Londonistan — has never been less British. Enriched by the growth of international financial services, populated by immigrants, London is to Britain what Hong Kong is to China.
It is when you take a closer look at the People's Republic of Britain that the absurdity of Brown's transatlantic rhetoric is laid bare. The most that can be said is that, in financial terms, Britain has become Mini-me to the United States' Dr. Evil.
Like the U.S., Britain has been enjoying a debt-propelled consumption boom. Household debt has grown at an accelerating pace since 1997 and exceeds 150% of post-tax income. Saving has plunged. As long as housing prices kept rising, the party could go on. But since the market cooled in the second half of 2004, the hangover has begun. Last year, Britain's economy grew by a miserable 1.8%.
The other source of growth in Brown's Britain has been public spending. Real government spending has surged since 1999 at an average rate of nearly 5% a year. Significantly, nearly a third of all the increase in employment since 1997 has been in the public sector, which now accounts for nearly 6 million workers.
As in the U.S., this splurge has been financed partly by borrowing. And, like the U.S., Britain also has a large current account deficit because imports have grown faster than exports.
Yet in the case of the United States, these vices are in large measured compensated for by the underlying vitality of its entrepreneurs and workers. Can the same be said for Britain? The answer is a resounding no.
Superficially, to be sure, British unemployment is low. But the official statistics are deceptive. In fact, about 5.3 million adults of working age are dependent on benefits, and 2.3 million of them have been living on welfare for more than five years. The reason they don't show up in the statistics is that many of them are counted as unfit for work rather than jobless. Every day, 23 teenagers in Britain sign up for disability benefits.
This reflects a crisis of public education as much as of public health — precisely the sectors into which Brown has been pouring money. As the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development points out, an exceptionally large share of British pupils leave school without qualifications. It may be technically correct that the disabled are not unemployed. The reality is that they are unemployable.
Nor do employed Britons rate very highly in international comparisons. In terms of productivity, Britain lags behind not only the United States and Germany but France and even Italy.
So, as much as I love Britain in the summer, I see all around the first intimations of a coming winter of discontent. And I feel angry at the way Brown has gotten away with all this through a combination of dumb luck (the global economy has given him a free ride) and a distinctly Scottish ability to intimidate critics.
So go to Martha's Vineyard, Gordon. Enjoy. But this time do England a favor. Don't come back.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 15. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:50 AM |
| herofix |
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Those are some good points, Jordan. The thing with the credit vs. printed notes especially. So, theoretically speaking, suppose the Bank of Hoboken decides that it is going to give out 40 trillion dollar loans to whomever applies, then are they able to do that? What kind of effect would that have on inflation (Ironball's definition) and also 'price inflation', and are they allowed to just pull the money out of the ether like that? For that matter, suppose Congress decides to do that and can't be bothered to see whether they have that kind of money (which is kind of what it seems like has happened under the Bush administration except it is 'defense' spending instead of social programs). My brain is pickled. You are essentially saying that the government actually no longer controls how much money is about, banks do. I do not know if that is correct or not, but it seems like the sort of thing every person should know, and that is why I want to take this discussion to the end.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 16. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:59 AM |
| herofix |
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Susan - Yes, I am nodding in agreement, especially the part about people on disability not showing up on employment figures which is something made clear to me by an excellent BBC programme a few months back. Better than Butterfingers? I'll admit it was crispity, but not as crunchity as I would have liked.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 17. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:16 AM |
| nuart |
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Oh well, think of it this way -- there's only 11 months plus change until your next birthday! Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 18. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:24 AM |
| jordan |
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I think Susan is probably correct here - it's not about gold - it's about confidence, and it's all very untangible. I remember in my semester of economics in high school that we discussed a lot about econimic theory which in the end I think is all economics is. So much (big and small) affects economics that its' difficult to actually pinpoint. Today, US concerns on interest rates affected the worldwide market. Economics is not in a secure little vaccuum and everything effects it - economic data or even social data or events. If a govt wanted to give 40 trillion in loans, I guess they could, but then all loans have a purpose, so what are we talking? Just 40 trillion for consumers to spend (some would call that tax cuts )? 40 trillion to invest? 40 trillion to build a new factory for sprockets? and being that it is a loan, it's going to be repaid in theory. But at the same time, injecting 40 trillion into the economy is also going to cause other problems - just like taking 40 trillion can cause problems. The beach example above seems to suggest that it was free money which a socialist society would only be able to do (theoretically).
The thing we always have to remember - the consumer (spending) is the majority of the economy. The less money consumers have to spend, less money that gets injected into the economy. This is why low taxes help the economy - consumers are able to spend more wich would (in theory) increase taxes as a whole because they purchase more. High consumer debt is not good for govt either in the long run. The higher the debt, the less people end up spending, which means less tax revenue. Initially, credit card spending (and debt) is good for govt. They are able to get money from consumers who spend more than they make in the beginning. But once the roosters come back to roost, the consumer has less to spend. And since it takes longer to get out of debt than in debt, this in the long run hurts taxes. Your comparison to increase govt spending isn't quite right, methinks. In that case we are talking about purchasing power by govt - not handing out money by govt. Govt spends more than it takes in, and then goes to banks to make up the difference (increasing debt). I don't see how the govt printing more money helps in the end - amybe it does - I just don't see it yet.
No, I never said that the govt has no control over how much money is about. Govt does have control about how much tangible money is about - actual bills, actual printing, etc. I do not believe they have control over worth and credit. Banks don't even have that kind of control. Only consumers do. If consumers believe someone has a great product, they buy and the worth of that company goes up and continues to go up. govt only has control when it steps in to complain about a monopoly. Got does perform some trickery. Recent oil issues is a great example. In the US, the federal govt brings in around 18 cents per dollar of gas. The state govt ranges between 15 and 40 cents per dollar depending where you live. So right there, the govt takes over 1/3 of the money made from gas. Once everything is said and done, "big oil" make about 10-15 cents per dollar - below what govt brings in, and yet govt officials have been grandstanding about the profit that oil companies have been making. The govt is making more per gallon of gas than "Big Oil" is and yet the evil ones are corporations. Govt is currently performing a trick before teh American people - making it look like they are looking out for the little guy when in fact, they are screwing teh little guy moreso than the "evil" corporations are.
Jordan .
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| 19. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:12 PM |
| nuart |
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Exactly, Jordan, and the biggest oil within the Big Bad Oil group is not EXXON but the several state held oil companies of the Middle East, Russia and Venezuela. I think EXXON comes in 7th within that group. The government coffers, like lawyers in a divorce, are the winners no matter which way the wind blows with oil prices up or down. I liked this Ben Stein quote from a couple months ago: Gas prices aren't set in shadowy conferences in shooting lodges, but in rooms of people shouting or punching computer keys in London, New York and Tokyo. Oil is a world commodity like tin or copper or rubber or coffee. The price is set by traders anticipating supply and demand. Rumors of war in the Mideast, terrorism against oil platforms in Nigeria, warmer weather in New England, bitter cold in London -- these are what set energy prices. Even the biggest US energy companies are tiny pawns in the game compared with the world market, flotsam and jetsam in the ocean of world oil trading. So when prices go up or down, it's not a conspiracy. It's PANIC or CONFIDENCE in the world market. It's just like what happens on the stock markets every trading day -- greed or fear at work, not a the companies being traded but on the exchanges. The oil companies can either lose or gain from this trading.
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 20. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:59 PM |
| Raymond |
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Hey, I like that Ben Stein quote Susan ! Good post.
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| 21. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:17 PM |
| herofix |
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Okay, so it is confidence, not gold you say. But then why does Ironball refer to it as toilet paper money? Isn't his point that someone (banks...governments ??) is able to just invent money at will? So someone please help me out here.... Let's say the U.S. wanted to buy the Eiffel Tower from France. Everyone is in agreement about this. Congress is happy to pass the bill, the President is happy to sign it, but there is agreement that there are to be no cuts in the budget to fund it, and no revenue raised specifically to pay for it. France wants 2 billion dollars for it (stay with me, this a thought experiment). What is to stop 'them' from phoning up the Mint and saying 'Start the presses', printing off 2 billion in Benjamins and then shipping that to a cackling Chirac via UPS?
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 22. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:25 PM |
| Raymond |
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Oh Jeez, you do have to be a badass for this and I will be "timed" out before I can type an understandable, complete answer, Basically : Each and every time a BANK makes a loan, a new bank credit is created, new deposits make brand new money. That's how it works, pretty much worldwide --since we all went off the gold standard years ago. Must post now before i am "erased"
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| 23. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:48 PM |
| Raymond |
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Now, on a national level, the creation of national debt has to do with government issued IOUs. Issued to cover any shortfall in revenue collection. That is all. See ya guys
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| 24. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:49 PM |
| jordan |
RE: Are you badass enough to weigh in on this? |
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Ironball - welcome. I'm gonna post this first and then read what you wrote above and reply to it later:
"But then why does Ironball refer to it as toilet paper money? Isn't his point that someone (banks...governments ??) is able to just invent money at will? So someone please help me out here...." See this regarding German hyperinflation and maybe this might help: http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/EconomicCatastrophe/HyperInflation.html I found this one which I think helps explain it even moreso: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/03/12/02/stone.htmSo I guess in the end, the answer is that the printing of more money reduces its value because money out there doesn't have any true backing in the end - or less and less backing than say, oh, 50 years ago. But I'm still confused when it comes to "credit" worth. Again, if a person has 2000 in their checking account, the bank doesn't actually have 2000 in bills marked just for that individual person. It's all intangible. So if our worth is intangible, then what's the point?? That's where I am having problems comprehending. Now to read the posts above....
Jordan .
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| 25. Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:02 PM |
| Raymond |
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"But I'm still confused when it comes to "credit" worth. Again, if a person has 2000 in their checking account, the bank doesn't actually have 2000 in bills marked just for that individual person. It's all intangible" Right, the bank has only a small fraction of that 2000 . It is mostly just credit extended. A bankers notation on her - the bank's -books !! A fiat currency as Iron mentioned.
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