these things are kind of pointless to discuss in my opinion. but on the other hand they are interesting to discuss. i am starting to get headaches though. but i think twin peaks and all other dl stuff is basically throwing in non-conclusive experiments and challening people to stop thinking conclusively. psychological problems are often related to supernatural ones because it is natural to posit the supernatural into the psychological (mind and body correlate, there must be more to the immaterial world of the mind). there is as much potential for there to be supernatural phenomena as there is as much potential for it to be strictly psychological and scientific. this is exactly what this ongoing debate is between whether Leland was "just crazy" or actually posessed. if something like this were answerable it would work as a chain reaction towards a world with no free will, which doesn't make sense. the irrational world makes sense, but it doesn't make sense for an irrational world to exist. but it also doesn't make sense for a rational world to exist. and so it goes around in circles for ever and ever.

Twin Peaks as a metaphysical representation of the Universe? I can see that  

If Cooper didn't have any interaction with BOB in the final episodes, I would say that it could just be Leland. But because BOB exists after Leland and because of the whole Red Room incident, either 1) Cooper has gone insane (maybe there's something in the coffee) or 2) BOB is a spirit.

But it may be a part of Cooper's special nature that he has an unusual capacity for empathizing with the disturbed state of his "subjects". Mike suggests as much in the interrogation scene... And there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of schizophrenic symptoms "rubbing off" on people who are close to the sufferer, especially when they're a charismatic type... Perhaps this is why Cooper is capable of entering Leland's and Laura's shared interior landscape. So Cooper has sorta gone insane by that theory -- he got too close to the fire and got burned, and until there's a sequel we'll never know how badly.

In the end, though, who's to say that a person's subjective convictions can't become so powerful that they manifest externally and be apprehended by others?

That's fine Jamie, except that Windom had no interaction with Leland (we assume at least) and he still sees BOB. So there's gotta be more than just a rubbing off of sorts (unless Coop is rubbing off on on Windom), esp when Windom downright tells Leo that there's a place called the Black Lodge with lots of power. If we assume that Windom is correct, then it's safe to assume that the BL (and its habitants) are more physical than physchological.

I believe that Leland was insane on the metaphorical level. Obviously the actual meaning was that BOB was a spirit from the lodges but yes, as I said, I think Leland was insane.

True enough, Jordan...

necrobump. I don't even remember writing any of this shit that I accidentally find Googling.

necrobump. I don't even remember writing any of this shit that I accidentally find Googling.

 You must have performed some sort of occult rite to drag up this entity from the great beyond.

interesting discussion...i believe in the other dimension intruding into our world theory.white lodge good,black lodge evil. just like our world theirs has both yet only the evil from the black lodge has come through. think of the possibilities if the series had continued of good coming from the white lodge to help combat the evil allready here from the black lodge...or perhaps that in fact the good exists in dale cooper and that is why he is so intuitive to leland and laura and bob and mike in dreams. birthplace of agent dale cooper...the white lodge!

I think everyone makes concessions for BOB not being real, and Leland just being a spirit, because it is a much cooler way to view the show! As has been discussed before, it seems like an easy way out for Leland to just have been possessed all that time. Having said that, his death scene aside, there are lots of hints that Leland had some input into the terrible things he did, without BOB being there.

I think Frost and Lynch went too far with the whole spirit entities. I love BOB's sparse appearances in the pilot and first series. It works so well, but they introduced so much spiritual stuff that it's clear that they believe Leland isn't insane, he is possessed. (Or at least the possession came before the insanity). There's a lot of mythology  you have to ignore if you want to believe that BOB is just a metaphor for evil/Leland's insanity etc.

Frost/Lynch going too far or not far enough is a double-edged sword. If they don't go "too far," certain aspects of the show are more interesting. Dale's weird dream of the Red Room says more about his eccentric methods than it does about the world of Twin Peaks. Leland is a more complicated character if he isn't "simply" possessed, etc.

However, by going all out with the "Lodge Spirit" concepts, we get the second Red Room sequence in the series finale and the more fascinating bits of FWWM--i.e. Desmond and Jefferies' experiences, Dale and Annie crossing over from the Lodge, etc. So it's a bit of a wash for me.

i can't think of anything more irrelevant than the artist's "intent." i'm sure kevin smith is trying to make "good" movies, that has no bearing on what's on the screen.

There's a brief but interesting bit about Twin Peaks in People's Celebrate the 90's special issue. It's two pages with that fashion shot of Audrey and Coop, with coffee and pie, in an RR booth, the other has thumbnails of the road sign, various characters and a little then and now with Sheryl Lee. Here're some Frost quotes which raise some interesting thoughts I think we should discuss.

Did Anyone Understand This Show?: "I have no idea. That's what was so odd about the show. We just threw stuff up from the subconcious every now and then. We didn't have any definitive meaning we wanted to impose on anyone. It was more a Rorschach test for who the viewer was."

Owls: "The owls were a particular way of hinting at a supernatural presence around Twin Peaks. They probably harked back to Native American legends. Also, in UFO-ology some people apparantly claim that their memories of owls were a substitute for those little gray men who had actually abducted them."

Dwarf/Giant: "I remember David Lynch calling me up one day and saying, 'Mark, there is a giant in Agent Cooper's room.' I said, 'Uhh, okay. Well, let's try and figure out what he's doing there and go from there.' We decided that the giant and the dwarf were both aspects of either an imaginary world dwelling within the mind of Laura's father, Leland Palmer (who turned out to be the killer) or of an alternate universe intruding on ours."

Who was Killer BOB?: "That is the big question. Again, was Leland just insane and BOB a fragmented part of his personality? Or was BOB a real demonic presence? It's really hard to tell when you read accounts of genuinely irretrievable schozophrenics. They believe they are posessed."

Ok- does anyone think it's possible that Leland is just insane? What does that mean for Cooper and Laura? That the red room sequences are like the machine in The Cell that opens a window into a killer's dream world?

Maybe this has been stated/discussed before but at the end of the European Pilot doesn't BOB say, "you may think I've gone insane, but I promise I will kill again"...isn't he referring to Leland?
 

There's a brief but interesting bit about Twin Peaks in People's Celebrate the 90's special issue. It's two pages with that fashion shot of Audrey and Coop, with coffee and pie, in an RR booth, the other has thumbnails of the road sign, various characters and a little then and now with Sheryl Lee. Here're some Frost quotes which raise some interesting thoughts I think we should discuss.

Did Anyone Understand This Show?: "I have no idea. That's what was so odd about the show. We just threw stuff up from the subconcious every now and then. We didn't have any definitive meaning we wanted to impose on anyone. It was more a Rorschach test for who the viewer was."

Owls: "The owls were a particular way of hinting at a supernatural presence around Twin Peaks. They probably harked back to Native American legends. Also, in UFO-ology some people apparantly claim that their memories of owls were a substitute for those little gray men who had actually abducted them."

Dwarf/Giant: "I remember David Lynch calling me up one day and saying, 'Mark, there is a giant in Agent Cooper's room.' I said, 'Uhh, okay. Well, let's try and figure out what he's doing there and go from there.' We decided that the giant and the dwarf were both aspects of either an imaginary world dwelling within the mind of Laura's father, Leland Palmer (who turned out to be the killer) or of an alternate universe intruding on ours."

Who was Killer BOB?: "That is the big question. Again, was Leland just insane and BOB a fragmented part of his personality? Or was BOB a real demonic presence? It's really hard to tell when you read accounts of genuinely irretrievable schozophrenics. They believe they are posessed."

Ok- does anyone think it's possible that Leland is just insane? What does that mean for Cooper and Laura? That the red room sequences are like the machine in The Cell that opens a window into a killer's dream world?

Maybe this has been stated/discussed before but at the end of the European Pilot doesn't BOB say, "you may think I've gone insane, but I promise I will kill again"...isn't he referring to Leland?
 

 he also says it "as Leland" in the series while in jail. it's like he was saying "you can't catch me".

shortly thereafter Leland is left to remember everything and the episode ends when Harry says "where's Bob now?" and we see the large owl flying off. remember "the owls are not what they seem".