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> Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications
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| 1. Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:38 AM |
| nuart |
Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
Member Since 12/18/2005 Posts:7632
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Did you all hear about the great Nobel Prize winning writer, Gunter Grass -- harsh lifelong critic of the USA -- coming out of the Nazi closet? I was at first a little ho hum but the story unfolds. Some (cynically) say he is trying to rev up sales in his autobiography which goes on sale next month. Do ya think he'd stoop so low? Or is it simply coincidental that this heavy weighing on his mind has occurred simultaneous to the publication of a book by someone few would be thinking about at all without some scandal. Oh, he wasn't JUST a Nazi either - he was SS Waffen! The few. The proud. The elite. Hmmm, this is all harkening me back to earlier Gazette discussions about how distorted the written history of this courageous military group has been. The frou frou fallout over this has become whether Grass should forfeit his Nobel Prize. Kinda like Pete Rose losing his spot in the Baseball Hall of Fame after admitting he gambled, I guess. Top writer admits to Nazi past Correspondents in Berlin 14aug06
IT'S enough to make an old man cry. Just days before publication of his long-awaited autobiography entitled Peeling the Onion, Gunter Grass, bleeding-heart figurehead of the German Left, has confessed he was once a member of the Nazi SS.
The revelation by the Nobel prize winner, now approaching his 80th birthday, has shocked Germany's literary and cultural world. It was Grass first and foremost who insisted the Germans "come clean" about their history and that his own generation should not try to pose as "victims" of Hitler's National Socialist ideology. Now the great advocate of facing unpalatable truths has lived up to his own standards, but a little late. The revelation came in an interview with Germany's respected conservative newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, and while it is certain to boost interest in his forthcoming autobiography it has done immeasurable harm to the writer's squeaky-clean reputation. Grass now says that, although he had told the truth to his wife, those he deceived included his own children and his biographer Michael Jurgs, with whom he spent countless hours apparently going over the minutiae of his life in the latter years of the Third Reich. Jurgs said yesterday: "I'm deeply disappointed. If he had come clean earlier and said he was in the SS at 17 no one would have cared, but now it puts in doubt from a moral point of view anything he has ever told us." It had long been known that Grass, who was only 18 when the war ended, had served in the armed forces and been wounded. But until now he had gone along with the story that he had been drafted into an anti-aircraft unit in his native Danzig. The truth, he now admits, is that he volunteered to join the U-boat fleet, "which was every bit as crazy", but was turned down and drafted instead into the 10th SS Panzer Division "Frundsberg", part of the Waffen SS. "By that stage," he insists, "the SS were taking anybody they could lay their hands on." He escaped lifelong identification as an SS member only because by late 1944 the regiments were no longer organised enough to carry out the customary process of tattooing conscripts' blood groups on their arms. Grass has not exactly tried to justify his long silence about his war experience but given the rather weak explanation: "My silence all these years was one of the reasons I had to write this book. In the end, it simply had to come out." But he has not got off lightly. In a separate commentary, the FAZ lashed out at him for hypocrisy, recalling in particular his outspoken and now sanctimonious-sounding condemnation of the 1985 visit by chancellor Helmut Kohl and president Ronald Reagan to Bitburg cemetery, where not only American soldiers but also Waffen SS men were buried. "Wouldn't the debate have been more honest if we had known that one of those blind followers of the SS had grown up to be, like him, a famous champion of freedom and democracy?" the paper said. "We're not talking about guilt or crimes here. Grass was still little more than a child," the FAZ added, noting that at least the great author never pretended to have been part of the anti-Nazi resistance and admitted that he believed in Hitler right up until the Nuremberg war crimes trials. But Grass has hidden behind his wall of silence in the postwar discussion when he could have made a crucial contribution by admitting the truth. Notably he was silent when another former Waffen SS man, Franz Schonhuber, now leader of the far-right Republikaner party, published his autobiography Ich War Dabei (I Was There), which insisted former members of the elite units were unfairly stigmatised. The debate was heated because Schonhuber made the point that the Waffen SS were exclusively military units, effectively a branch of the regular army, rather than convinced Nazis. Grass's belated revelation will mean a revaluation of the career of a man who made himself famous for saying the reputation of Germany would forever be linked with the word Auschwitz. It will also fuel the row between Poland and Germany over a new Berlin exhibition dedicated to the worldwide fate of people driven from their homes by ethnic cleansing, concentrating on Germans expelled from what is now Polish territory in 1945. Grass is, above all, celebrated for his evocation of Danzig during the early days of the Nazi regime in The Tin Drum, the 1957 novel that made his name overnight. Yet Danzig is now Gdansk and, since the days of Lech Walesa and the 1981 Solidarity strikes in its shipyards, as important a symbol in Polish culture as it once was in German. Grass was born in Danzig in 1927 and his father, whom he described as "a typical opportunistic fellow traveller" joined the Nazi party in 1936. At the end of the war, in circumstances that will now have to be re-examined, Grass ended up as an American prisoner of war. In one of the most titillating snippets from the forthcoming autobiography, he recalls meeting and becoming friendly with a rather shy 17-year-old called Joseph who was also in the Bad Aibling prisoner-of-war camp. "I wanted to be an artist; he wanted to go into the church," Grass recalls. He is unable, however, to confirm whether the lad was, indeed, Joseph Ratzinger, who admits to having been in the same camp and is now Pope Benedict XVI. In 1957, Grass joined Gruppe 47, a loose organisation of writers that included big names such as Alfred Andersch and Heinrich Boll, dedicated to exposing and overcoming Germany's Nazi past and bringing a new start to literature and society in general. It is certain that his admission into the group would have been far more complicated had he admitted to being a former Waffen SS recruit. Arguably, his conversion would have made his contribution all the more valid and important, but the mere fact could at that time have proved an insurmountable barrier. But the publication of The Tin Drum and its sudden, unexpected global success changed everything. Grass became the voice of the new German literature, surpassing all his contemporaries. Its hero Oskar Matzerath, who stopped growing at the age of three in a perverse reaction to everything that was going on around him and forever after beat his childhood tin drum in fury, became a difficult, sinister leitmotif for stunted, emotionally damaged German society. Grass's insistent, repetitive message to his fellow citizens was that they should never, ever forget. It seems that only now has he himself chosen to remember.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 2. Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:33 AM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Lifetime critic of the U S, probably because they put his Nazi ass in prison. What a sanctimonious piece of garbage.
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| 3. Wednesday, August 16, 2006 12:25 PM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Yeah, sure . Next you'll be saying the same thing about Ratzinger !! You...apologist you.
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| 4. Wednesday, August 16, 2006 12:27 PM |
| LetsRoque |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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who was it that retorted to grass's comment about the 'dark night of facism descending on America?' It went something like 'yes, but it is always falling on Europe.' - great reply!
'I look for an opening, do you understand?'
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| 5. Wednesday, August 16, 2006 2:01 PM |
| Jazz |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
Member Since 12/19/2005 Posts:2214
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It's not the fact that he was a Nazi in his youth that got to me, I mean so many Germans I meet every day were, in one way or another (Waffen SS, Wehrmacht, Hitlerjeugend etc.). But this man hunted other intellectuals, politicians and such for their role in the nazi regime, and forced them to be open about it, calling this 'coming out' that what needs to be done in Germany. Which in itself is not so bad in a country that has to live with this legacy, but that he kept his own role a secret is what makes him such a hypocrite. Besides, he's a socialist and wrote boring books, down with him!
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| 6. Wednesday, August 16, 2006 2:04 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
Member Since 12/18/2005 Posts:7632
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Precisely, Jazz! I once served jury duty with an ex-Nazi (who DID get on a jury panel while I, as usual, did not) and I'm sure he's not the only minor league ex-Nazi walking the streets of LA. Ratzinger instinctively knew to own up to his past from the get-go. Grass -- a novelistic one hit wonder -- waited until just before the final curtain to confess in what could be argued was a purely opportunistic way. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 7. Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:25 PM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Alrighty then, attention Mr. C. C. Clown. 1) Would you also say that the author was sanctimonious in his dogged confronting of other prior Nazi members ?______yes ______no and 2) Would you agree that the author could possibly hold the fact that the U S put him in prison to be a logical reason for his criticism of said U S ?_______yes ________no I am attempting to see if you truly believe my criticism of the gentleman was " exaggerated a bit ". Thanking you in advance for your respnse.
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| 8. Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:30 PM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Oh absolutely Sir. Then you believe when someone busts you and puts you in prison - that could not have the effect of making you want to criticize those people, engage in a revenge mode, if you will ? That such conjecture is illogical and not probable. ?
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| 9. Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:46 PM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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But this charcter did not truly reform- that is the point--he hid his Nazi envolvement for a lifetime unlike so many others. I can't accept that he was grateful to the U S for his prison term. He, I am sure would have preferred that those pesky yanks had overlooked him. That would have made his sneaky life long hiding of Nazi affiliation easier. The converse premise that he welcomed being put in prison and would have liked the yanks for that action does not add up for a guy intent on hiding his past until a virtual deathbed confession. Europeans and Americans are still both subject to the universal view that those who cause us problems and pain are likely not to be on our list of people we are supportive of. Basic human nature. I give you the last word Erwin.
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| 10. Saturday, August 19, 2006 2:34 PM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
Member Since 12/18/2005 Posts:1664
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I will not be spending that weekend envolved in this type of discussion Candy. I have been in a great mood the past few days. Some real estate deals are taking shape and I am looking forward to next year. I have been making more kinda silly, light hearted posts here lately and that is indicative of my good mood. Life is good. I am going back to an office job next week-I still need a stream of income for the next few months and I look forward to a work social situation and hopefully hooking up with fellow workers. My kid is doing great selling new homes, he has a new girlfriend and I hope for a grandchild in the next few years. All is right with the world my man. Festival will be cool , I have no doubt ! We need Clowns these day my man_ glad you are around !
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| 11. Monday, August 21, 2006 10:28 AM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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This quote is addressed at Mr. Grass. It may well be applicable to others as well. "The hypocrite always wears a halo. He walks in the light of his own goodness, encircled by the clarity of illuminated virtue. His dark secret is hidden from sight so he can enjoy popular applause for his undiminished radiance." by Suzanne Fields.
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| 12. Monday, August 21, 2006 10:52 AM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
Member Since 12/18/2005 Posts:1664
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Now Candy, prevaracator, or fibber maybe ? Liar is such a strong word dude. Besides you relinquished your opportunity for the " last word". And furthermore that offer was concerned with the reply to the specific question of how a fellow would react to being imprisoned, not the thread altogether. Now : I Candy Colored Clown, do hereby agree with Raymond's defense about being a liar. _________true____________false.
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| 13. Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:39 AM |
| Raymond |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Lech Walesa is a better man than I am, Gunga Din. A million dollar closing today--ya know that Grass fellow isn't so bad.
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| 14. Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:44 AM |
| nuart |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Yeah, well Lech is a forgiving sort, I suppose. I remember a book "The Drowned and the Saved" by Primo Levi, Italian holocaust survivor, who wrote about the levels of culpability. In a pyramid type construct, the upper peak of culpability would be assigned to Hitler and his immediate henchmen. Lowere down would be the implementers of his massive crime from commanders to brutal wardens of the camps, etc. Down further, near the base would be the lower level kapos, turncoats, enablers, appeasers, etc. The purely innocent died first. Primo Levi considered himself culpable for surviving. This book was his suicide note for it clarified the reasons for his remorse as a survivor. Then, maybe 40 years after the liberation of the camps, he jumped out of the window of his Italian home and took his own life. Lech most certainly would have forgiven Primo but Primo couldn't forgive himself. One "offense" -- hoarding the drip drip drip from a broken water pipe he discovered while in a concentration/slave camp. He shared it with one other man mainly because he thought the man had observed his discovery. Years later he wondered if another inmate had watched the two of them. He asked himself how many others could have shared this secret water supply. And he accused himself for what he did to survive and accused himself while trying desperately to exonerate himself at the same time. Gunter Grass feels guilty huh? For most of us, we will never be called upon to make such earth-shaking decisions of life and death that test our core principles. For those who have faced such decisions, made the wrong choice and covered it up for years while accusing others for their shortcomings, I have something less than forgiveness. What a worm. I'm Long Island in this regard.
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 15. Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:56 AM |
| nuart |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
Member Since 12/18/2005 Posts:7632
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QUOTE:It was just some unfinished business between me and Raymond, but you realise that, right?  |
Si si, senor, but it's not everyday I get to bring up Primo Levi! Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 16. Thursday, August 24, 2006 8:12 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Book Related Current Event w/Political Implications |
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Looks like Christopher Hitchens is not a Gunter Grass fan. He's so funny! (Christopher Hitchens, that is.) Susan fighting words Snake in the Grass The pompous, hypocritical hucksterism of Günter Grass. By Christopher Hitchens Posted Tuesday, Aug. 22, 2006, at 12:00 PM ET
For many of the postwar decades, Günter Grass was above all fortunate in his enemies. In West Germany, these enemies took two forms. The first was the large number of citizens who were queasy about the recent past, and the second was the smaller number of citizens who were not so queasy. To the first, Grass could address himself in a high moral tone, calling for an honest appraisal of history and for an accounting with the silence and complicity that had marked the era of National Socialism. This represented, among other things, a demand that parents be candid with their children. To the forces of the German right, on the other hand, or with those who did not take easily to the admission of guilt or shame, he could address himself more forcefully. I believe that it was when partisans of conservative Chancellor Konrad Adenauer referred to Socialist challenger Willy Brandt as "the Norwegian bastard" (because he was of illegitimate birth and because he had worn the Norwegian uniform while fighting against Hitler's soldiers) that Grass decided to become an active campaigner for the Social Democrats. I once heard a conservative writer for the Frankfurter Allgemeine refer disdainfully to Grass himself as a man who looked as if he'd recently dismounted from a shaggy pony that had come from the Mongolian steppes. I felt myself obliged to defend him from this innuendo.For all this, one was never able to suppress the slight feeling that the author of The Tin Drum was something of a bigmouth and a fraud, and also something of a hypocrite. He was one of those whom Gore Vidal might have had in mind when he referred to the high horse, always tethered conveniently nearby, which the writer/rider could mount at any moment. Seldom did Grass miss a chance to be lofty and morally stern. But between the pony and the horse, between the stirrup and the ground, there stood (and stands) a calculating opportunist. During the 1980s, Chancellor Helmut Kohl came up with a well-turned but somewhat shady phrase. "The grace of late birth," as he put it, was what had saved many people of his generation from taking part in atrocities. This exemption, which came up again recently when Josef Ratzinger's early membership in the Hitler Youth was disclosed, has applied for over half a century to Grass himself. He was 6 years old when Hitler became chancellor, and thus never had to answer any questions about what he did in the killing fields to the East and the South. To say that he took full advantage of this privilege would be to understate matters. So his decision, in his current ripe and honored state, to admit to teenage membership of the Waffen SS, requires a bit more justification than he's been able to offer so far. The German right is of course highly incensed, and now accuses the man who lectured Germans for so long of being not just a hypocrite but a huckster: uncorking the hideous revelation to enhance the sale of his latest memoirs. Full of acrimony as this charge may be, it has some inescapable truth to it. Grass was one of those who dragged the Nazi period into everything, including into discussions where it did not belong. When German reunification finally occurred after 1989, he referred to it with scorn as an Anschluss whereby the West had annexed the former "German Democratic Republic." When challenged on the absurdity of this, he wielded the truncheon of moral blackmail and said that, after Auschwitz, his critics had no right to speak about history. At a discussion in a Berlin theater at about that time, I heard him defend these propositions and felt that I was listening to a near-perfect example of bogus pseudo-intellectuality. By this stage, he had already become something of a specialist in half-baked moral equivalences. At the PEN conference in New York in the mid-1980s, for example, he had sonorously announced that conditions in the South Bronx put the United States on a par with the Soviet Union … I didn't like being lectured by a second-rater then and I like it no better when I discover I was being admonished by a member, however junior or conscripted, of Heinrich Himmler's corps d'elite. It also deserves to be added that this hectoring tendency became more extreme as the quality of his own writing declined. (If you doubt me, try reading The Flounder.) And, in still more recent years, Grass has been maneuvering to catch the wave of feeling that says—in one tone of voice or another—that Germans were victims, too. Not just victims of Hitler, you understand, but victims of Russian and British and American violence. Some of this literature, most notably W.G. Sebald's On The Natural History of Destruction, is respectable both in its reasoning and in its temper, but other bits of it—such as Jörg Friedrich's The Fire and the associated self-pitying campaigns in tabloid papers such as Bild—are, well, not so respectable. And suddenly there is Grass, publishing a large and cumbersome account of the sinking of a German civilian vessel in the Baltic in 1945, and titling it (in the same lineage of his many books about dogs, rats, snails, fish, and other beasts) Crabwalk. If any other author had tried this, at least until recently, he would have been hauled back into line by Grass with a loud and belching reminder that Auschwitz forbade any such sentiment. Grass' many defenders have not asked themselves the question that needs to be posed, which is: Has he at last decided to appeal to the new German readership that is, so to say, a bit fed up with hearing about how dreadful the Nazis were? If this admittedly rather cynical suggestion has any merit, then at least his recent boring writings and operatic confessions would, in combination, make perfect sense. But they would also make absolute nonsense of his previous career as a literary policeman and a patroller of the line of taboo. "Let those who want to judge, pass judgment," Grass said last week in a typically sententious utterance. Very well, then, mein lieber Herr. The first judgment is that you kept quiet about your past until you could win the Nobel Prize for literature. The second judgment is that you are not as important to German or to literary history as you think you are. The third judgment is that you will be remembered neither as a war criminal nor as an anti-Nazi hero, but more as a bit of a bloody fool.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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