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1. Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:36 PM
JVSCant Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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I belong to Amnesty International. Did U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld just equate me with a Nazi collaborator, or just a sympathizer? He and his damage control team can be so hard to parse...


 
2. Thursday, August 31, 2006 5:12 AM
jordan RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.

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I read that article twice and I'm confused. What did he say EXACTLY and what were the paragraphs around that particular comment? It almost sounds like the story you linked to doesn't quite want to give the exact quotes.

In any case - if he did call you a Nazi sympathiser, then join the club. Some of us have been (directly and indirectly) called facsists and Nazis for quite some time now.


Jordan .

 
3. Thursday, August 31, 2006 11:09 AM
nuart RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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It's the wonder of instant information that, with a little bit of effort, one can locate the PRIMARY SOURCE.  These primary sources are complete without the editorializing of a journalist.  They illustrate the context.  And without them, the interpretters of events on the world stage have little significance.

Let us all be grateful for easily being able to locate stuff like this.   And Google.  

Susan 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
4. Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:47 PM
danwhy RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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This is an editorial I don't enitirely agree with but found to be on topic. 

Feeling morally, intellectually confused?

The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

Mr. Rumsfeld’s remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands the deep analysis—and the sober contemplation—of every American.

For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence -- indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land. Worse, still, it credits those same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience; a total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration’s track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.

Dissent and disagreement with government is the life’s blood of human freedom; and not merely because it is the first roadblock against the kind of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as “his” troops still fight, this very evening, in Iraq.

It is also essential.  Because just every once in awhile it is right and the power to which it speaks, is wrong.

In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld’s speechwriter was adroit in invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis. For in their time, there was another government faced with true peril—with a growing evil—powerful and remorseless.

That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld’s, had a monopoly on all the facts. It, too, had the “secret information.” It alone had the true picture of the threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld’s -- questioning their intellect and their morality.

That government was England’s, in the 1930’s.

It knew Hitler posed no true threat to Europe, let alone England.

It knew Germany was not re-arming, in violation of all treaties and accords. 

It knew that the hard evidence it received, which contradicted its own policies, its own conclusions — its own omniscience -- needed to be dismissed.

The English government of Neville Chamberlain already knew the truth.

Most relevant of all — it “knew” that its staunchest critics needed to be marginalized and isolated. In fact, it portrayed the foremost of them as a blood-thirsty war-monger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or intellectually confused.

That critic’s name was Winston Churchill.

Sadly, we have no Winston Churchills evident among us this evening.  We have only Donald Rumsfelds, demonizing disagreement, the way Neville Chamberlain demonized Winston Churchill.

History — and 163 million pounds of Luftwaffe bombs over England — have taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty — and his own confusion. A confusion that suggested that the office can not only make the man, but that the office can also make the facts.

Thus, did Mr. Rumsfeld make an apt historical analogy.

Excepting the fact, that he has the battery plugged in backwards.

His government, absolute -- and exclusive -- in its knowledge, is not the modern version of the one which stood up to the Nazis.

It is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.

But back to today’s Omniscient ones.

That, about which Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this: This is a Democracy. Still. Sometimes just barely.

And, as such, all voices count -- not just his.

Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of omniscience — about Osama Bin Laden’s plans five years ago, about Saddam Hussein’s weapons four years ago, about Hurricane Katrina’s impact one year ago — we all might be able to swallow hard, and accept their “omniscience” as a bearable, even useful recipe, of fact, plus ego.

But, to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance, and its own hubris.

Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about his own standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to the entire “Fog of Fear” which continues to envelop this nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, and their cronies have — inadvertently or intentionally — profited and benefited, both personally, and politically.

And yet he can stand up, in public, and question the morality and the intellect of those of us who dare ask just for the receipt for the Emporer’s New Clothes?

In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child, of whose heroism did he read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight? With what country has he confused the United States of America?

The confusion we -- as its citizens— must now address, is stark and forbidding.

But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when men like Nixon and McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag. Note -- with hope in your heart — that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light, and we can, too.

The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly fought.

And about Mr. Rumsfeld’s other main assertion, that this country faces a “new type of fascism.”

As he was correct to remind us how a government that knew everything could get everything wrong, so too was he right when he said that -- though probably not in the way he thought he meant it. 

This country faces a new type of fascism - indeed.

Although I presumptuously use his sign-off each night, in feeble tribute, I have utterly no claim to the words of the exemplary journalist Edward R. Murrow.

But never in the trial of a thousand years of writing could I come close to matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a time when other politicians thought they (and they alone) knew everything, and branded those who disagreed: “confused” or “immoral.”

Thus, forgive me, for reading Murrow, in full:

“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty,” he said, in 1954. “We must remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.

“We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular.”

And so good night, and good luck.

Comments? Email KOlbermann@msnbc.com


"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"

 
5. Friday, September 1, 2006 3:35 PM
nuart RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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Olberman, former sportscaster, seldom-watched MSNBC host made the usual mistake with such breathless "Have you no shame, Sirrrrrrrr" approaches.  He blathers on with the non-specific and omits any examples of that which he deplores.

Okay.  He got some play on the internet for this really lame diatribe. 

But here's the latest from Rumsfeld to Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.  I'm sure by now we've all read the full speech which I linked above, being one who cares about accurate sources and full articles.  Wonder if they've written him back yet.

This is the sort of political game I think the nation could do without.   

Susan

 


The Honorable Nancy Pelosi
Democratic Leader of the House
Washington, D.C. 20515

Dear Representative Pelosi,

I was concerned about comments attributed to you in the media about the remarks I recently made to the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars.

Thought and careful preparation went into what I said. It is absolutely essential for us to look at lessons of history in this critical moment in the war on terror. I was honored by the reception my statements received from our veterans.

I am sending you the full text of my remarks because I assume your comments to the press were made in reaction to inaccurate media reports, such as the coverage by the Associated Press.

I know you agree that with America under attack and U.S. troops in the field, our national debate on this should be constructive.

Sincerely,

Donald Rumsfeld
Secretary of Defense

cc: The Honorable Dennis Hastert

 

The Honorable Harry Reid
Democratic Leader of the Senate
United States Senate
Washington, D.C. 20510

Dear Senator Reid,

I was concerned about comments attributed to you in the media about the remarks I recently made to the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars.

Thought and careful preparation went into what I said. It is absolutely essential for us to look at lessons of history in this critical moment in the war on terror. I was honored by the reception my statements received from our veterans.

I am sending you the full text of my remarks because I assume your comments to the press were made in reaction to inaccurate media reports, such as the coverage by the Associated Press.

I know you agree that with America under attack and U.S. troops in the field, our national debate on this should be constructive.

Sincerely,

Donald Rumsfeld
Secretary of Defense

cc: The Honorable Bill Frist


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
6. Friday, September 1, 2006 11:12 PM
JVSCant RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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But a form letter just doesn't have that personal touch...

Honestly, I'm not offended, I was just being jokey.  As the title I chose for the thread implies, I just think it's an unfortunate symbol of how bad things are that the government has to start resorting to Nazi references to try to get some traction.  Rhetoric-wise, it means you're pretty close to the end of your rope.


 
7. Saturday, September 2, 2006 8:38 AM
nuart RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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Oh, do I feel your pain, Jamie. I have felt it for several years now every time Bush has been called "Hitler" and every time the Israeli flag's star of David has been switched into a swastika, and just the other day when failed candidate Paul Hackett referred to Dan Senor as "Herr" and "Unter Fuhrer" during a TV discussion.  My stomach turns when I hear 9/11 described as the Rheicstach fire.  I wince when I hear Gitmo described as a torture chamber.  My skin crawls when left wing websites draw spooky parallels to their country's current administration to the Nazi regime.  I feel it and react negatively to it each step of the way. 

So where does that leave us?  Arguing semantics while much is collapsing.  Sometimes I wonder if the ____________ world is having any discussions over referencing the US and Israel as "big and little Satan."  Hard to imagine.

But all these discussions illustrate how up the air everyone is.  For this, I blame the US administration first and foremost.  If you are unable to communicate by using precise words to describe what and why we are fighting, then once it siphons down through the populus, the meaning will be lost. And then we can argue about who called whom a Nazi, Hitler, Mengele, Himmler, or yada. Yada. Yada.

For the record even the expression "War on Terror" has been one I've objected to and I rarely (if ever) have used it in my lexicon. So fine.  Let us all develop a few new terms to define WHO and WHAT we are fighting.  I'm for that.  Doesn't mean anyone else will share the terms, but maybe we can cut to the chase once the definitions are established.  Maybe then we can discuss the problem which to me, isn't "you called me a Nazi- waaaaaah" or "they called me Fascist - unfair" or "he called me Neville Chamberlain -- mean."  FEH.

I'm not sure we can all wait 2 more years for leadership.  What's worse, it's hard to see any of same on the horizon.

Guess I need a cup of coffee.

Susan 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
8. Saturday, September 2, 2006 9:10 AM
The Staring Man RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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I have never been a George Bush fan and certainly not one of Rumsfeld's supporters. When I met him Runmy in Iraq I really just wanted to tell him how it was REALLY going but of course I couldn't for many reasons. The really sad thing was watching Officers run and get their camera's to have their 15 seconds with Donny. Then of course was the obligatory "Dog and Pony Show" butt kissing spectacle of Soldiers and Marines telling Donny that all his well in Iraq. Rumsfeld has been in such a protective of bubble from reality it makes me wonder if he will ever come out. Maybe John Travolta could do a movie about Rummy?

   The Bush Administration is so out of touch with the reality of the world around them that I can't wait till 2008. But will we get new leadership or will America get suckered in for a the 3-peat of Republican rule?  Its a bit early to start down that road but it does make me wish for a "Winston Churchill" type that can give us the truth in 2008. Is there someone out there with a real plan to fight the war on terrorism? Can rebuild New Orleans? Get Gas prices under $2.00 a gallon? 

I need more coffee!!!  

 


"The only thing that Columbus discovered was that he was lost"
 
9. Saturday, September 2, 2006 9:18 AM
The Staring Man RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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Always providing humor to the masses!!!


"The only thing that Columbus discovered was that he was lost"
 
10. Saturday, September 2, 2006 3:21 PM
jordan RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.

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With regards to the gas - think that has less to do with the Bush admin and more to do with other things. In any case- saw an article on Drudge that said that we might see $2 gallon gas by Nov. And I kept getting rolling eyes by everyone when I mentioned getting back down there.

"The Bush Administration is so out of touch with the reality of the world around them that I can't wait till 2008"

ALL POLITICIANS are out of touch with the reality of the world. That's why they are politicians. :)


Jordan .

 
11. Monday, September 4, 2006 2:06 PM
danwhy RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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QUOTE:

Oh, do I feel your pain, Jamie. I have felt it for several years now every time Bush has been called "Hitler" and every time the Israeli flag's star of David has been switched into a swastika, and just the other day when failed candidate Paul Hackett referred to Dan Senor as "Herr" and "Unter Fuhrer" during a TV discussion.  My stomach turns when I hear 9/11 described as the Rheicstach fire.  I wince when I hear Gitmo described as a torture chamber.  My skin crawls when left wing websites draw spooky parallels to their country's current administration to the Nazi regime.  I feel it and react negatively to it each step of the way. 

So where does that leave us?  Arguing semantics while much is collapsing.  Sometimes I wonder if the ____________ world is having any discussions over referencing the US and Israel as "big and little Satan."  Hard to imagine.

But all these discussions illustrate how up the air everyone is.  For this, I blame the US administration first and foremost.  If you are unable to communicate by using precise words to describe what and why we are fighting, then once it siphons down through the populus, the meaning will be lost. And then we can argue about who called whom a Nazi, Hitler, Mengele, Himmler, or yada. Yada. Yada.

For the record even the expression "War on Terror" has been one I've objected to and I rarely (if ever) have used it in my lexicon. So fine.  Let us all develop a few new terms to define WHO and WHAT we are fighting.  I'm for that.  Doesn't mean anyone else will share the terms, but maybe we can cut to the chase once the definitions are established.  Maybe then we can discuss the problem which to me, isn't "you called me a Nazi- waaaaaah" or "they called me Fascist - unfair" or "he called me Neville Chamberlain -- mean."  FEH.

I'm not sure we can all wait 2 more years for leadership.  What's worse, it's hard to see any of same on the horizon.

Guess I need a cup of coffee.

Susan 

 

A strange day for I agree with Susan about something!

America must agree with you on the leadership issue as well as for around 6 straight months or so Bush's approval has hoevered at 40% or below so it is safe to say only a minority of Americans approve of Bush.  I also agree you can't have a war on terror, you can war against many things but terror is not one of them.  The world is interested in the US because it's leader plays the largest role there is on the world stage.  The sad thing is even in 2 years what will the world have?  There is certainly no one from the Dem's right now that strikes me as a great leader, and same from the Rep's.  It would be equally as dangerous to have a poor Dem leader as it is to have Bush right now.  Hopefully someone is waiting in the wings somewhere that we just don't know about yet, and hopefully they aren't far right or far left.
 


"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"

 
12. Monday, September 4, 2006 2:11 PM
Raymond RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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Giulliani is an interesting possibility.

 
13. Monday, September 4, 2006 3:44 PM
danwhy RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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Interesting, yes, world leader, ?

He certainly proved to be a person who reacts well under pressure and did a lot more than Bush during and after 9/11.  If he would have been mayor of NO during Katrina he likely would have done a way better job as well.  Does that translate into national and world leadership?  Lot's of questions still about him.  Also, will the right accept his positions on gun control, gay marriage and abortion?  He's like the anti-Bush on these issues.  Is it okay to be married 3 times and still demonstrate family values?  Will the religious right accept any of this?  Time will tell but yes, he's worth a look indeed.


"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"

 
14. Monday, September 4, 2006 4:36 PM
nuart RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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QUOTE:

Interesting, yes, world leader, ?

He certainly proved to be a person who reacts well under pressure and did a lot more than Bush during and after 9/11. If he would have been mayor of NO during Katrina he likely would have done a way better job as well. Does that translate into national and world leadership? Lot's of questions still about him. Also, will the right accept his positions on gun control, gay marriage and abortion? He's like the anti-Bush on these issues. Is it okay to be married 3 times and still demonstrate family values? Will the religious right accept any of this? Time will tell but yes, he's worth a look indeed.

Those are some of the very questions pundits are posing about Giuliani, Danwhy, but I have a different theory.  I think that the country -- and the world but they can't vote here -- are so eager to have a leader that I do not think such traditional perceived shortcomings such as multiple marriages or so called values issues will plague whoever is the next candidate, be they Dem or Rep. 

But you know that I lean toward optimism.

Susan 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
15. Monday, September 4, 2006 5:16 PM
danwhy RE: Rumsfeld vs Godwin.


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At first glance he shares many of the things I tend towards, fiscal conservatism tempered with social liberalism.  I really don't know anything about his foreign policy thoughts though.


"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"

 

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