Home | Register | Login | Members  

Politics > Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark
New Topic | Post Reply
<< | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >>  
51. Wednesday, February 8, 2006 6:57 AM
danwhy RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1923

 View Profile
 Send PM
An attempt at irony that seems to have failed...


"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"

 
52. Wednesday, February 8, 2006 7:44 AM
jordan RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

This whole thing about how Muhammed is not supposed to be represented is wrong. There's Muslim art that shows Muhammed. Take a look at this link and editorial - there's a picture of the Prophet there.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007934  

From the editorial: A miniature by Sultan Muhammad-Nur Bokharai, showing Muhammad riding Buraq, a horse with the face of a beautiful woman, on his way to Jerusalem for his M'eraj or nocturnal journey to Heavens (16th century); a painting showing Archangel Gabriel guiding Muhammad into Medina, the prophet's capital after he fled from Mecca (16th century); a portrait of Muhammad, his face covered with a mask, on a pulpit in Medina (16th century); an Isfahan miniature depicting the prophet with his favorite kitten, Hurairah (17th century); Kamaleddin Behzad's miniature showing Muhammad contemplating a rose produced by a drop of sweat that fell from his face (19th century); a painting, "Massacre of the Family of the Prophet," showing Muhammad watching as his grandson Hussain is put to death by the Umayyads in Karbala (19th century); a painting showing Muhammad and seven of his first followers (18th century); and Kamal ul-Mulk's portrait of Muhammad showing the prophet holding the Quran in one hand while with the index finger of the other hand he points to the Oneness of God (19th century).

Some of these can be seen in museums within the Muslim world, including the Topkapi in Istanbul, and in Bokhara and Samarkand, Uzbekistan, and Haroun-Walat, Iran (a suburb of Isfahan). Visitors to other museums, including some in Europe, would find miniatures and book illuminations depicting Muhammad, at times wearing his Meccan burqa (cover) or his Medinan niqab (mask). There have been few statues of Muhammad, although several Iranian and Arab contemporary sculptors have produced busts of the prophet. One statue of Muhammad can be seen at the building of the U.S. Supreme Court, where the prophet is honored as one of the great "lawgivers" of mankind.
 

I heard an interview with the author of the following book. Might be a good read (written by a moderate Muslim):

The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith


Jordan .

 
53. Wednesday, February 8, 2006 12:26 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Irshad Manji, the Canadian lesbian Muslim, is probably well on her way to NOT being a Muslim rather than a moderate Muslim. She has enough existing fatwas against her to make a Salman Rushdie shift plausible. My guess is she will morph into an Aayan Ali Hirsi within a short period of time.

Having digested the entire George Friedman piece, I think he has hit the nail on the head with these points:

"The controversy over the cartoons involves issues so fundamental to the two sides that neither can give in. The Muslims cannot accept visual satire involving the Prophet. Nor can the Europeans accept that Muslims can, using the threat of force, dictate what can be published. Core values are at stake and that translates into geopolitics."

And...

"This drives home to the Europeans an argument that the Bush administration has been making from the beginning -- THE THREAT FROM MUSLIM EXTREMISTS IS NOT REALLY A RESPONSE TO ANYTHING, BUT A CONSTANTLY PRESENT DANGER THAT CAN BE TRIGGERED BY ANYTHING OR NOTHING, HOSTAGE TO ISLAMIC PERCEPTIONS."

Now, what about this?? MON DIEU!!! Have the French (some of them) grown a pair of huevos, or what??? I've looked but cannot find this publication on line nor can I find the new cartoon they have published.  They seem to be on the right track.  Solidarity, Europe!  Solidarity. 

Now is the time for all good men (and women) to come to the aid of their...

...CIVILIZATION! 

 

Susan

 

 



French weekly reprints cartoons, angers Muslims
Wed Feb 8, 2006 7:43 AM ET

By Kerstin Gehmlich and Swaha Pattanaik
PARIS (Reuters)
-

 

A French satirical weekly reprinted cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad on Wednesday and published one of its own on its front page, further angering Muslim groups which say the caricatures are blasphemous.

French Muslim organizations tried to prevent Charlie Hebdo reprinting the 12 cartoons, which were first published by the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten, but a court rejected their suit on Tuesday on a technicality.

President Jacques Chirac condemned "overt provocations" which could enflame passions, but did not name Charlie Hebdo in his latest appeal for restraint in a dispute that has triggered violent protests across the Muslim world.

Charlie Hebdo carried the new cartoon on its front page, depicting the Prophet Mohammad burying his face in his hands and saying: "It's hard to be loved by fools".

Sales of the weekly were brisk in Paris. Inside pages showed the 12 cartoons that were first printed in Denmark and included an editorial explaining the decision to reprint them.

"When extremists extract concessions from democracies on points of principle, either by blackmail or terror, democracies do not have long left," Charlie Hebdo editor Philippe Val wrote.

As well as publishing the Danish cartoons, Charlie Hebdo published other cartoons on its back page which caricatured other religions including Christianity and Judaism.

Sources at Charlie Hebdo said some staff had been placed under police protection. Two police officers guarded the weekly's offices in the center of Paris on Wednesday morning.

The parking space in front of the offices was cordoned off and police checked people entering the building, where a sign said no more copies of the weekly were left for sale.

MUSLIM IRE

The cartoons, reprinted by several European papers, have provoked a crisis between Europe and the Muslim world. Islam prohibits any depiction of the Prophet Mohammad.

French Muslim organizations said they would continue to try to take legal steps against Charlie Hebdo and the daily newspaper France Soir, which reprinted the controversial cartoons last week. France Soir later sacked its editor.

"We would have hoped for there to be a willingness to calm things down," said Fouad Alaoui of the Union of French Islamic organizations (UOIF).

"Charlie Hebdo wants to fan the flames. France's Muslims say 'No'. In our societies, we must not allow insults to be encouraged," Alaoui said.

France's 5-million strong Muslim community is the largest in Europe and makes up about 8 percent of the French population.
"I condemn all obvious provocations which could dangerously fuel passions," a spokesman quoted Chirac as telling a government meeting.

"Anything that can hurt the convictions of someone else, in particular religious convictions, should be avoided. Freedom of expression should be exercised in a spirit of responsibility."

Chirac urged the government to be particularly attentive to the security of French citizens abroad.


(Additional reporting by Sophie Louet)


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
54. Wednesday, February 8, 2006 2:39 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Here's the translation of Good Old Sheikh Al-Qaradhawi's (European Fatwa guy) latest piece. Note the ever present preoccupation with Jews. All 13,000,000 of them in a world of 6,000,000,000. In a world of 1,300,000,000 Muslims it's hard to believe how much control the Jews extend upon the lives of those within the vast and growing Ummah, isn't it? Truly.

Susan

PS And a photo from an EGYPTIAN paper back last year that didn't spark riots.

ne


 

February 9, 2006 No.1089


Sheikh Al-Qaradhawi Responds to Cartoons of Prophet Muhammad: Whoever is Angered and Does Not Rage in Anger is a Jackass - We are Not a Nation of Jackasses




In a February 3, 2006 Friday sermon, Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, who is head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, president of the International Association of Muslim Scholars (IAMS), and the spiritual guide of many other Islamist organizations across the world (including the Muslim Brotherhood), exhorted worshippers to show rage to the world over the Danish paper Jylland Posten's publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. The sermon was aired on Qatar TV on February 3, 2006.


The following are excerpts from the sermon:


Governments Must Be Pressured to Demand a U.N. Resolution Banning Affronts to Prophets


Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi: "The nation must rage in anger. It is told that Imam Al-Shafi' said: 'Whoever was angered and did not rage is a jackass.' We are not a nation of jackasses. We are not jackasses for riding, but lions that roar. We are lions that zealously protect their dens, and avenge affronts to their sanctities. We are not a nation of jackasses. We are a nation that should rage for the sake of Allah, His Prophet, and His book. We are the nation of Muhammad, and we must never accept the degradation of our religion.


[...]


"We must rage, and show our rage to the world.


[...]


"The governments must be pressured to demand that the U.N. adopt a clear resolution or law that categorically prohibits affronts to prophets - to the prophets of the Lord and His messengers, to His holy books, and to the religious holy places. This is so that nobody can cause them harm. They enacted such laws in order to protect the Jews and Judaism. Like some Danes have said: 'We can mock Jesus and his mother.' They were asked: 'Can you mock the Jews?' Here they stopped. The Jews are protected by laws - the laws that protect Semitism, and nobody can say even one word about the number [of victims] in the alleged Holocaust. Nobody can do so, even if he is writing an M.A. or Ph.D. thesis, and discussing it scientifically. Such claims are not acceptable. When Roger Garaudy talked about it, he was sentenced to jail, according to the laws. We want laws protecting the holy places, the prophets, and Allah's messengers."


[...]


"Stand Up and Prove That You are Muslim, That You Protect This Religion With Zeal"


"Before ending my sermon, I would like to issue several warnings. The first warning is directed at our feeble governments, which are trying to gauge America's position: Will America be pleased with us or not if we rage about this? They fear the Creator more than they fear His creation [sic], and try to please people more than they try to please Allah. To those feeble governments we say: Take a courageous stand. Stand up and prove that you are Muslim, and that you protect this religion with zeal. We want our governments not to split from their peoples. The masses throughout the Islamic world have made their position clear. They have displayed their rage. The governments must not split away from these masses."


Europeans' Silence Over Such Crimes Begets Violence, Generates Terrorism


"The second warning I direct at the Westerners, the Americans, and the Europeans who follow them, who claim to be fighting terrorism, and struggling against violence throughout the world.


"I say to them: Your silence over such crimes, which offend the Prophet of Islam and insult his great nation, is what begets violence, generates terrorism, and makes the terrorists say: Our governments are doing nothing, and we must avenge our Prophet ourselves. This is what creates terrorism and begets violence."


[...]


"We say to those Europeans: We can get by without you, but you cannot get by without us. We can get by without your products. We will buy from China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, from the Asian countries. We will say what King Faysal - may he rest in peace - said in 1973, in the days of the petroleum war. He said to them: We can get by without the petrol, and return to our days of yore. We will make do with milk and dates. We will drink the milk of our camels, and eat the dates from our palm trees. King Faysal said this when there was a threat to Arab honor. It is all the more true when there is a threat to our Islamic honor, to our prophets, and our religion."


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
55. Wednesday, February 8, 2006 7:58 PM
Annie RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1124

 View Profile
 Send PM
WOW-that's really something!  Susan, you should have been a politician.


Keep your eye on the doughnut, not on the hole -- DL

 
56. Thursday, February 9, 2006 1:30 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Yeah, I guess! If I ever got past all the closet skeletons, I'd probably be able to wrangle up one or two votes!

The Cartoon Wars seem to be simmering down today, don't they? So I think it's time to let you know that there are some shocking similarities going on in the Midwest over the Guy Lombardi cartoons. Yes. That's right. Not to offend any residents of Wisconsin, but the cheeseheads are in an uproar this time.

Check it out: http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/

Here's the cartoon in question:

c

 I'll tell you, it's ugly out there and it's getting uglier!

 

Susan 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
57. Thursday, February 9, 2006 3:54 PM
Raymond RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1664

 View Profile
 Send PM
 Susan dear, I think that is Vince Lombardi not Guy Lombardo RIP

 
58. Thursday, February 9, 2006 4:21 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM
QUOTE: Susan dear, I think that is Vince Lombardi not Guy Lombardo RIP

HAHAHA, Raymond! Right you are and it just shows to go you how much attention I pay to football! That's hilarious!

But truthfully, who can forget that final Guy Lombardo New Year's Eve back in seventy-something. We had a live lobster and fettucine party with a few friends and turned on the TV... Oh, you know I just can't get that guy outta my head and he pops up at the strangest moments!

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
59. Thursday, February 9, 2006 11:10 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Okay, I got another goodie! I will tell you these Cartoon Wars have made for some fine clarity of thinking and some great writing. Here's David Brooks from the NY Times, addressing the Iranians call for submissions in their Holocaust Cartoon competition.

Bravo!

Susan

 


 

February 9, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist

Drafting Hitler

You want us to know how you feel. You in the Arab European League published a cartoon of Hitler in bed with Anne Frank so we in the West would understand how offended you were by those Danish cartoons. You at the Iranian newspaper Hamshahri are holding a Holocaust cartoon contest so we'll also know how you feel.

Well, I saw the Hitler-Anne Frank cartoon: the two have just had sex and Hitler says to her, "Write this one in your diary, Anne." But I still don't know how you feel. I still don't feel as if I should burn embassies or behead people or call on God or bin Laden to exterminate my foes. I still don't feel your rage. I don't feel threatened by a sophomoric cartoon, even one as tasteless as that one.

At first I sympathized with your anger at the Danish cartoons because it's impolite to trample on other people's religious symbols. But as the rage spread and the issue grew more cosmic, many of us in the West were reminded of how vast the chasm is between you and us. There was more talk than ever about a clash of civilizations. We don't just have different ideas; we have a different relationship to ideas.

We in the West were born into a world that reflects the legacy of Socrates and the agora. In our world, images, statistics and arguments swarm around from all directions. There are movies and blogs, books and sermons. There's the profound and the vulgar, the high and the low.

In our world we spend our time sifting and measuring, throwing away the dumb and offensive, e-mailing the smart and the incisive. We aim, in Michael Oakeshott's words, to live amid the conversation — "an endless unrehearsed intellectual adventure in which, in imagination, we enter a variety of modes of understanding the world and ourselves and are not disconcerted by the differences or dismayed by the inconclusiveness of it all."

We believe in progress and in personal growth. By swimming in this flurry of perspectives, by facing unpleasant facts, we try to come closer and closer to understanding.

But you have a different way. When I say you, I don't mean you Muslims. I don't mean you genuine Islamic scholars and learners. I mean you Islamists. I mean you young men who were well educated in the West, but who have retreated in disgust from the inconclusiveness and chaos of our conversation. You've retreated from the agora into an exaggerated version of Muslim purity.

You frame the contrast between your world and our world more bluntly than we outsiders would ever dare to. In London the protesters held signs reading "Freedom Go to Hell," "Exterminate Those Who Mock Islam," "Be Prepared for the Real Holocaust" and "Europe You Will Pay, Your 9/11 Is on the Way." In Copenhagen, an imam declared, "In the West, freedom of speech is sacred; to us, the prophet is sacred" — as if the two were necessarily opposed.

Our mind-set is progressive and rational. Your mind-set is pre-Enlightenment and mythological. In your worldview, history doesn't move forward through gradual understanding. In your worldview, history is resolved during the apocalyptic conflict between the supernaturally pure jihadist and the supernaturally evil Jew.

You seize on any shred — even a months-old cartoon from an obscure Danish paper — to prove to yourself that the Jew and the crusader are on the offensive, that the apocalyptic confrontation is at hand. You invent primitive stories — like the one about Jews who kill children for their blood — to reinforce your image of Jewish evil. You deny the Holocaust because if the Jews were as powerful as you say, they would never have allowed it to happen.

In my world, people search for truth in their own diverse ways. In your world, the faithful and the infidel battle for survival, and words and ideas and cartoons are nothing more than weapons in that war.

So, of course, what started in Denmark ended up for you with Hitler, the Holocaust and the Jew. But in your overreaction this past week, your defensiveness is showing. Democracy is coming to your region, and democracy brings the conversation. Mainstream leaders like Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani are embracing democracy and denouncing your riots as "misguided and oppressive."

You fundamentalists have turned yourselves into a superpower of dysfunction, demanding our attention week after week. But it is hard to intimidate people forever into silence, to bottle up the conversation, to lock the world into an epic war only you want. While I don't share your rage, I do understand your panic.


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
60. Friday, February 10, 2006 12:59 AM
JVSCant RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:2870

 View Profile
 Send PM
I liked that piece a lot.  Thank you.


 
61. Friday, February 10, 2006 5:48 AM
jordan RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

A few months ago, a few members tore me apart because I compared this struggle as a type of clash "between civilizations" or something close to that. I was asked if Al Qaeda and other terrorists groups created a "civilization" and that I was using that term too broadly since "civilization" refers to more than just a bunch of terrorists. I bet I could still find that thread...

In any case, for those of you who criticized me for using such language - are your thoughts shifting somewhat after this past week? The editorial above brinkgs it up again - a clash of civilizations. We aren't necessarily talking the West vs Terrorism anymore - we are talking the West vs ME Muslims (for the most part and in general).

If this isn't a clash of civilizations, then I don't know what is.  


Jordan .

 
62. Friday, February 10, 2006 6:59 AM
Josch RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/20/2005
 Posts:571

 View Profile
 Send PM
Well, I saw the Hitler-Anne Frank cartoon: the two have just had sex and Hitler says to her, "Write this one in your diary, Anne."

Ew. That's gross on so many levels.


I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.
 
63. Friday, February 10, 2006 9:58 AM
jordan RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM
keep an eye on this site - they've put together a shirt with Muhammed with the bomb on his head.


Jordan .

 
64. Friday, February 10, 2006 12:15 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

QUOTE:

A few months ago, a few members tore me apart because I compared this struggle as a type of clash "between civilizations" or something close to that. I was asked if Al Qaeda and other terrorists groups created a "civilization" and that I was using that term too broadly since "civilization" refers to more than just a bunch of terrorists. I bet I could still find that thread...

In any case, for those of you who criticized me for using such language - are your thoughts shifting somewhat after this past week? The editorial above brinkgs it up again - a clash of civilizations. We aren't necessarily talking the West vs Terrorism anymore - we are talking the West vs ME Muslims (for the most part and in general).

If this isn't a clash of civilizations, then I don't know what is.

Okay.  I'm sorry, Jordan.  You were right all along!  Ummph!  Why didn't I listen?  From this point on, I shall!

 

Susan 



     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
65. Friday, February 10, 2006 1:25 PM
jordan RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

If more people did, it would be a better world.


Jordan .

 
66. Friday, February 10, 2006 8:46 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

I thought things were quieting down but I guess it depends on where you live. Must just be a knee jerk reaction to throw in "Death to Bush," '"Death to USA" and "Death to Israel" in between the less familiar to the tongue "Death to Denmark" and "Death to Danes" and most implausibly, "Death to France!" 

Here's the latest from the Washington Post.


Susan


 

Muslims' Fury Rages Unabated Over Cartoons
Demonstrators in 12 Countries Ignore Leaders' Appeals, Newspaper's Apology


By Kevin Sullivan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, February 11, 2006; A12


COPENHAGEN, Feb. 10 -- Tens of thousands of Muslims took to the streets across Asia, Africa and the Middle East after weekly prayers on Friday, burning Danish flags and shouting anti-Danish and anti-American slogans in a continuing convulsion of anger over cartoons of the prophet Muhammad.

Demonstrators marched in at least 12 countries -- Kenya, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Indonesia, the Philippines, Egypt, Israel and Jordan -- as the global wave of protests, spurred by a Danish newspaper's publication of cartoons depicting Islam's holiest figure and the reprinting of those cartoons in newspapers in other countries, headed toward a second consecutive weekend.

The protesters defied calls for calm from several prominent Muslim leaders and organizations as well as a statement of regret from Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen and an apology by editors of the newspaper that originally published the cartoons. "The government has done what can be done," Rasmussen said in an interview Thursday. "Neither the government nor the Danish people can be held responsible for what is published in an independent newspaper. And neither the government nor the Danish people have any intention whatsoever to insult Muslims or any other religious community."

In Kenya, police shot and wounded at least one protester Friday as they tried to protect the Danish ambassador's residence. Thousands of demonstrators shouting "Kill Danes! Down with Denmark!" marched from Nairobi's largest mosque following Friday prayers. Riot police fired on a group of at least 200 people who then tried to reach the home of the Danish envoy, Bo Jensen.

"We've certainly heard their message and hope they will go home," Jensen told the Reuters news agency.

In Pakistan, more than 5,000 people demonstrated peacefully in Islamabad in the largest rally in the country since the controversy began. Another 2,000 protesters fought with police in the northwestern city of Peshawar.

In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, several thousand protesters marched from a mosque to the Danish Embassy, shouting, "Destroy Denmark! Destroy Israel! Destroy George Bush! Destroy America!" Others carried placards supporting an economic boycott that has almost halted Danish exports to the Middle East and North Africa.

Addressing a large crowd, Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi described a "huge chasm that has emerged between the West and Islam," not simply because of the cartoons, he said, but because of Western policies regarding oil, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In India, thousands of angry Muslims kicked, spat on and tore Danish flags and burned effigies in the capital, New Delhi, and in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir, the Associated Press reported. In Bangladesh, more than 5,000 Muslims marched on Denmark's embassy in the capital, Dhaka, shouting, "Death to those who degrade our beloved prophet!"

In the Middle East, about 2,000 women, young boys and older men marched around the Dome of the Rock shrine in Jerusalem chanting "Bin Laden, strike again!"
Large crowds of protesters in Gaza fired gunshots into the air and burned Danish flags. Thousands clashed with police in Egypt.

About 2,000 Muslims marched in Jordan. Demonstrators in Tehran threw gasoline bombs at the French Embassy and shouted, "Death to France!" and "Death to America!" Several French newspapers have reprinted some of the Danish cartoons.
The violence came despite calls for calm from Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami, a senior cleric.

"I am calling on all religious men not to attack the embassies of the foreigners," Khatami told worshipers in Tehran in comments broadcast live on state radio. "Chanting slogans, staging protests and condemning such measures are holy . . . but I feel that they want their embassies to be set on fire so they can say that they are innocent. Take this excuse away from them."

In Sweden, the government shut down the Web site of a far-right political party's newspaper after it briefly posted a cartoon of Muhammad. It was the first time a Western government has intervened to block a publication in the controversy over the cartoons, the BBC reported.

Richard Jomshof, editor of the newspaper, SD-Kuriren, which is published by the anti-immigration Swedish Democrats, said the action was illegal. Jomshof's paper had posted a cartoon showing Muhammad from the rear, looking into a mirror with his eyes blacked out. He said the cartoon was about self-censorship, but Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds called it "a provocation" by "a small group of extremists."

In Copenhagen, Flemming Rose, the culture editor of the Jyllands-Posten newspaper, which originally published the cartoons on Sept. 30, was told to take a two-week vacation. "There is no disagreement whatsoever between me and the company," Rose said in an interview. "I'm tired, I have been under huge pressure, and I am grateful to the paper for this time off."

Rose said this week that he intended to print cartoons of Jesus Christ and the Israel-Palestinian conflict. He said the idea was to show that his newspaper would direct satire against all religions. Rose also said he was considering printing cartoons about the Holocaust that an Iranian newspaper intended to publish.

The newspaper's editor in chief, Carsten Juste, later publicly contradicted those statements , and Rose agreed that they represented "an error in judgment."

In Norway on Friday, the editor of Magazinet, a Christian newspaper, apologized to Muslims for reprinting the cartoons, which had made Norway a target of Muslim attacks, including the burning of its embassy in Damascus, Syria. Vebjoern Selbekk, who had initially defended the Jan. 10 publication as an expression of press freedom, said at a news conference: "I address myself personally to the Muslim community to say that I am sorry that your religious feelings have been hurt. It was never our intent to hurt anyone."

Selbekk, who said he had received more than 20 e-mailed death threats, then shook hands with Mohammed Hamdan, leader of the Islamic Council in Norway, who urged forgiveness and Selbekk's safety.

"Anyone who touches him touches us," Hamdan said. "Our prophet, Muhammad, has said that everyone can make mistakes, but the best is the one who expresses regret and asks for forgiveness."


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
67. Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:12 PM
Modéus RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/19/2005
 Posts:502

 View Profile
 Send PM
All I can say is that islamic decrees shouldn't rule Denmark. Denmark is ruled by Danish laws. If that doesn't fit the muslims in Denmark, they could always go back to were they came from.

Same goes here in Sweden.

SD-Kuriren, the paper of Swedens biggest party outside the parliament published the pictures on their internet site. And they also posted a reader's painting of the prophet Muhammed.

For that the goverment made the webbhoster shut their site down without trial.

They published the pictures with a hope that other political parties would do the same to show how much they value freedom of speach above foreign religious rules. But none other followed their example. That only shows that this is the only party that actually value freedom.

thank god it's still possible to visit them at http://www.sverigedemokraterna.net

the site that has ben shut down is http://www.sverigedemokraterna.se

 
68. Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:15 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Maybe it's just Firefox but here's what I got:

Firefox can't find the server at www.sverigedemokraterna.se.

 Oops.  My mistake.  Tried the other and got it.  Whaddaya know?  It's in Svensk! 

Can't find the painting, however, Modeus.  Further directions?

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
69. Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:51 PM
Raymond RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1664

 View Profile
 Send PM

Just wanted to give a prop to ole Ayatollah al Sistani the Iraqi Shiite cleric who has proven to be a plus for post Saddam Iraq. The guy has been, certainly for that region, a fairly sane cat:

In Iraq, the country's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani, decried the drawings but did not call for protests.

"We strongly denounce and condemn this horrific action," he said in a statement posted on his Web site and dated Tuesday.

Al-Sistani, who wields enormous influence over Iraq's majority Shiites, made no call for protests and suggested that militant Muslims were partly to blame for distorting Islam's image.

He referred to "misguided and oppressive" segments of the Muslim community and said their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."

"Enemies have exploited this ... to spread their poison and revive their old hatreds with new methods and mechanisms," he said.                                                         

from slate.com  emphasis mine

 
70. Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:55 AM
Modéus RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/19/2005
 Posts:502

 View Profile
 Send PM
oh.. Yes the pictures. They chose to delete the pictures as they heard that Swedes living in the muslim world could be put in danger becaus of the pictures.

 
71. Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:03 AM
Modéus RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/19/2005
 Posts:502

 View Profile
 Send PM
But the picture that the reader submitted was quite inoffensive. A picture of a dark brown haired man looking into a mirror and in the reflection his eyes are censored with a black rectangular box and a text at the bottom in swedish saying "Muhammedc self censorship"

 
72. Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:06 AM
jordan RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

And in a oddly related article:

 Muslim women group vows to stop Valentine's Day because it creates immorality

Note that the group is not simply campaigning/picketing, but they are breaking into stores and stealing Valentine's Day cards and burning them. The group has smeared paint on scantily-clothed women's pictures.

Guess some people never heard about multiculturalism..... 


Jordan .

 
73. Sunday, February 12, 2006 11:51 AM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

This is pretty funny! Now we have the Mustafa Shag male doll. Well, we have him for the time being anyway. Buy 'em now, Europeans, because they may soon be removed from your sex shop shelves for being "offensive." Ah, what a sticky wicket this business of being inoffensive has become! They've been telling us to buy Danish butter cookies and Danish beer.  Has the time come to buy large quantities of Mustafa Shag blow-up dolls?  I'm willing to do my part for Western civilization.  Are U???

Steyn did make a factual error in this article that I'd like to point out. Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not a moderate Muslim. She is not a Muslim at all. She is in that most awkward of all religious affiliations -- an apostate of Islam.

Susan

Here's the offensive item as shown in his unopened packaged form:

ms

MUSTAFA SHAG DOLL
Your own inflatable escort for your Hen Night adventures. Mustafa comes with his own penis.
Blow him hard to inflate him and watch his 7 incher come to life.

PRICE: £15.00



Toon-deaf Europe is taking the wrong stand
February 12, 2006
BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST


From Europe's biggest-selling newspaper, the Sun: 'Furious Muslims have blasted adult shop [i.e., sex shop] Ann Summers for selling a blowup male doll called Mustafa Shag."

Not literally "blasted" in the Danish Embassy sense, or at least not yet. Quite how Britain's Muslim Association found out about Mustafa Shag in order to be offended by him is not clear. It may be that there was some confusion: given that "blowup males" are one of Islam's leading exports, perhaps some believers went along expecting to find Ahmed and Walid modeling the new line of Semtex belts. Instead, they were confronted by just another filthy infidel sex gag. The Muslim Association's complaint, needless to say, is that the sex toy "insults the Prophet Muhammad -- who also has the title al-Mustapha.'

In a world in which Danish cartoons insult the prophet and Disney Piglet mugs insult the prophet and Burger King chocolate ice-cream swirl designs insult the prophet, maybe it would just be easier to make a list of things that don't insult him. Nonetheless, the Muslim Association wrote to the Ann Summers sex-shop chain, "We are asking you to have our Most Revered Prophet's name 'Mustafa' and the afflicted word 'shag' removed."

If I were a Muslim, I'd be "hurt" and "humiliated" that the revered prophet's name is given not to latex blowup males but to so many real blowup males: The leader of the 9/11 plotters? Mohammed Atta. The British Muslim who self-detonated in a Tel Aviv bar? Asif Mohammed Hanif. The gunman who shot up the El Al counter at LAX? Heshamed Mohamed Hedayet. The former U.S. Army sergeant who masterminded the slaughter at the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? Ali Mohamed. The murderer of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh? Mohammed Bouyeri. The notorious Sydney gang rapist? Mohammed Skaf. The Washington sniper? John Allen Muhammed. If I were a Muslim, I would be deeply offended that the prophet's name is the preferred appellation of so many killers and suicide bombers on every corner of the earth.

But apparently that's not as big a deal as Mustafa Shag. When Samuel Huntington formulated his famous "clash of civilizations" thesis, I'm sure he hoped it would play out as something nobler than shaggers vs. nutters. But in a sense that's the core British value these days. If it's inherent in Muslim culture to take umbrage at everything, it's inherent in English culture to turn everything into a lame sex gag. The "Mustafa" template is one of the most revered in the English music-hall tradition: "I've been reading the latest scholarly monograph -- 'Sexual Practices of the Middle East by Mustapha Camel.'" If they wanted to appease the surging Muslim demographic, the British could conceivably withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan but it's hard to imagine they could withdraw from vulgar sex jokes and still be recognizably British. They are, in the Muslim Association's choice of words, "afflicted" with shag fever.

In theory, this should have been the perfect moment for Albert Brooks to release his new film 'Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World.' Instead, life is effortlessly outpacing art. Brooks had an excellent premise and, somewhere between studio equivocation and his sense of self-preservation, it all got watered down, beginning with the decision to focus the plot on a trip to India. Which is a, er, mostly Hindu country. But the Arab world refused to let Brooks film there, and, even if they had, he'd have been lucky to get out alive. Needless to say, the movie doesn't mention that. So a film whose title flaunts a bold disdain for political correctness is, in the end, merely another concession to it.

You can't blame Brooks, not in a world of surreal headlines like "Cartoon Death Toll Up to Nine" (the Sunday Times of Australia). Instead of 'Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World,' the Muslim world's come looking for comedy in the West and doesn't like what it's found. If memory serves, it was NBC who back in the '70s used to have every sitcom joke about homosexuality vetted by a gay dentist in New Jersey. Apprised of this at a conference on censorship, the producer of "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" remarked, "You mean there really is a tooth fairy?" Alas, the Islamist Advisory Commission on Quran-Compatible Humor will be made of sterner stuff, and likely far more devastating to the sitcom biz.

And the good news is that that body's already on its way. The European Union's Justice and Security Commissioner, Franco Frattini, said on Thursday that the EU would set up a "media code" to encourage "prudence" in the way they cover, ah, certain sensitive subjects. As Signor Frattini explained it to the Daily Telegraph, "The press will give the Muslim world the message: We are aware of the consequences of exercising the right of free expression. . . . We can and we are ready to self-regulate that right."

"Prudence"? "Self-regulate our free expression"? No, I'm afraid that's just giving the Muslim world the message: You've won, I surrender, please stop kicking me.

But they never do. Because, to use the Arabic proverb with which Robert Ferrigno opens his new novel, Prayers for the Assassin, set in an Islamic Republic of America, "A falling camel attracts many knives." In Denmark and France and the Netherlands and Britain, Islam senses the camel is falling and this is no time to stop knifing him.

The issue is not "freedom of speech" or "the responsibilities of the press" or "sensitivity to certain cultures." The issue, as it has been in all these loony tune controversies going back to the Salman Rushdie fatwa, is the point at which a free society musters the will to stand up to thugs. British Muslims march through the streets waving placards reading "BEHEAD THE ENEMIES OF ISLAM." If they mean that, bring it on. As my columnar confrere John O'Sullivan argued, we might as well fight in the first ditch as the last.

But then it's patiently explained to us for the umpteenth time that they're not representative, that there are many many "moderate Muslims.'

I believe that. I've met plenty of "moderate Muslims" in Jordan and Iraq and the Gulf states. But, as a reader wrote to me a year or two back, in Europe and North America they aren't so much "moderate Muslims" as quiescent Muslims. The few who do speak out wind up living in hiding or under 24-hour armed guard, like Dutch MP Ayaab Hirsi Ali.

So when the EU and the BBC and the New York Times say that we too need to be more "sensitive" to those fellows with "Behead the enemies of Islam" banners, they should look in the mirror: They're turning into "moderate Muslims," and likely to wind up as cowed and silenced and invisible.


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
74. Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:04 PM
JVSCant RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:2870

 View Profile
 Send PM

Here's some more of my man, Rex Murphy. (Consider it my Valentine's gift to you, Susan...)

Under the cover of faith

The casual understanding of what is being called the cartoon crisis is fairly straightforward. A Danish newspaper published 12 cartoons that depicted the Prophet Mohammed. Two in particular stood out. One featured the Prophet wearing a "bomb" turban, the other featured him on a cloud meeting three suicide bombers arriving in (we presume) Paradise with the line, "Stop, stop, we ran out of virgins!"

The cartoons, measured by a secular, Western yardstick, were not exceptional. A few were mere stylized representations. The pictures were not ferocious caricatures -- see the U.K. Cartoon of the Year of Ariel Sharon eating Palestinian babies.

By the standards of religious sensibility, they were irreverent. By the standards of Muslim sensibility, they were beyond question blasphemous and insulting. Their blasphemy does not hang on what many are calling the absolute prohibition against any picturing of the Prophet. The question of whether the Prophet may be represented in images or art is, I gather, not as determinatively settled as a lot of news accounts casually suggest.

They are blasphemous because in Islam, as in fact in many or all the world's main religions, mocking, deriding, disrespectfully or perversely invoking the deity is a definition of blasphemy.

Portions of the West may have forgotten what blasphemy is. The entertainment industry, with reference to Christianity in particular, seems never either to have known or cared.

A picture of Kanye West wearing a crown of thorns, on the cover of a recent Rolling Stone, is a blasphemy. The infamously celebrated "Piss Christ" -- a Crucifix in a jar of urine -- was blasphemous even to my lapsed sensibility. And, of course, there's Madonna's career.

The Danish cartoons were published last September in Denmark, but the uproar over them, the simultaneous protests, riots and embassy-burnings they are said to have sparked, only reached a peak this week. Most people reading the news may have wondered why there was such a gap between the publication and the outrage. And why, amid so many other quarrels between the West and the Muslim world, these 12 cartoons were capable of stirring such violent passions.

Part of the answer, and it seems to me an important point to underscore, is that it is not just the original 12 cartoons, but (at least) three others -- all more offensive than any of the originals. One shows the Prophet with a pig's snout, one features bestiality, another pedophilia.

These three were included in a "dossier" compiled by an imam in Denmark who took a tour of Muslim countries showing them to state and religious leaders. Since that tour he has been interviewed on Danish television about the additions, and one of the more insulting images shown to have been "doctored," and based on a report they have nothing to do with any aspect of this controversy.

We are not free to subtract this element from an account of the outrage. If there has been manipulation in the Muslim world of this story, and additionally, more corrosive images deliberately added to the originals, corrosive images designed by their greater graphic and scatological detail to make outrage all but inescapable, then it is not just a story about 12 cartoons about Mohammed published in a Danish newspaper in September, 2005.

It may be a bigger story about quite cynical and duplicitous manipulation, founded on a kernel of reality, and then amplified with more explosive material and fed into the context of suspicion, friction and misunderstanding between the West and the Muslim world.

If people in the Muslim world are reacting to more than the pictures in a Danish newspaper, if they are reacting to strategically gathered, supplementary pictures of unqualified venom and uncompromising insult, placed before the Muslim world by the Danish imam, then the calls for apology from Western authorities are both premature and incomplete.

A story that looked like a spontaneous combustion between Western free speech and Muslim religiosity may contain more sly politics and subtle incitement than most headlines acknowledged. The Danish cartoonists may have supplied an occasion for much mischief, but the deeper mischief it may turn out was not their cartoons, but the supplemented dossier, the more gruesome and insulting representations associating their Prophet with truly unspeakable circumstances.

There is very much to be said about the contest, or friction, between the foundational democratic principle of free speech and the absolutes of religious belief.

I am far from convinced, however, that in this "cartoon debate" one faction has not attempted to rig the facts and -- in part -- achieve political goals under the cover of faith. If that is so -- there's a blasphemy all will agree on.

 


 
75. Monday, February 13, 2006 5:29 PM
nuart RE: Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

I don't know Jamie. That was, oh... I don't want to say "Canadian"... but maybe "Swiss" in its intensity. Seemed to me a little like the response of the schoolteacher after a bully sucker punches one kid and that kid reels around, and smacks the bully back. But the frazzled teacher says, "The entire class is staying in today for recess!" On one hand and on the other hand. If by now, Rex isn't entirely clear on what's going on, maybe he should reread the news. Maybe this thread alone could help.

It also reminded me of a school essay where the student is striving to reach the required word count without clearly understanding the subject matter. "Some say Macbeth was ambitious. Others claim Macbeth was political. It is easy to see that both have a very very very good point if you look at their good points from both their points of view."

Too bad, cuz I was just starting to get a bang out of Rex but that piece was just a little too dainty for my taste.

Here's an interesting case of the Nouveau FRENCH (an army of one + a Danish-American) Ray-zeez-dahz! Imagine yourself wearing a Danish flag and walking amid this crowd on the streets of Paris. Watch and listen. If you understand French, it's probably better still, though the sound is pas le best qualite.

http://www.dailymotion.com/search/islamistes/video/46200

Here's the text that went with this video clip:

No Pasaran! reports on the extraordinary experience of two men - a Danish American and a French American - countering 4000 Islamic cartoon demonstrators in Paris with signs reading “Support Denmark, Support free speech” and “Free Cartoonist.” Fearing the two men would be “lynched,” French plainclothes cops hustled them off into a waiting van.

“Are you out of your minds?!” ask the two officers. “Do you know how many of them there were?!” “Somebody’s got to stand up for free speech”, replies the French protestor. After staying with us for 20-something minutes, they let us out. (As a departing farewell, I say, “You know, right before you came, we almost had them surrounded.”)

Here's a little visual of some cute Palestinian children being forced to protest cartoons. Note the nice touch of the Danish flag on the fake casket. It's no Rose Bowl parade but inventive all the same, doncha think? I can't help but think of the irony of the many Scandinavians who wouldn't dream of buying an Israeli peach out of sympathy for the Palestinians. Oh well, I suppose it's apples and oranges. Or peaches.

g

About 500 children, ranging from kindergarten students to young teenagers, joined Monday's protest. The students methodically trampled over a large Danish flag placed on the ground. Many waved green Hamas flags or wore trademark Hamas headbands.

The crowd also carried a mock coffin with "Denmark" written on it, shouted anti-Danish slogans and called for a boycott of Danish products. "With our soul, we will redeem our prophet," they chanted.

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 

New Topic | Post Reply Page 3 of 4 :: << | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >>
Politics > Islam-West Culture Wars in Denmark


Users viewing this Topic (1)
1 Guest


This page was generated in 297 ms.