Aww, Susan, I'm way more anti-soccer than anti-religion. Boring as hell.

And thanks for the advice on 'astral' travel, Kevin. I agree it's dangerous, but not because you could die; it's dangerous because people (in the words of Robert Anton Wilson, R.I.P.) get mixed up in the esoteric before they have any competence in dealing with the ordinary, and then the vividity of their experiences ends up making them kinda nuts. As far as Jesus being real like Kentucky is, I've never been to Kentucky, so I'll defer to others.

- - - - -

I feel a bit redundant harping on this point... my idea is not intended as an anti-religious one, any more than my belief that 10-year-olds shouldn't be allowed to operate a motor vehicle is an anti-driving idea.

I have plenty of criticisms of way organized religions sometimes operate, on one hand, and plenty more criticisms of what I consider their unnecessarily archaic philosophies on the other; these are not blanket condemnations of all of these organizations and belief systems, but they're my views of the weaknesses of them.

That's fine for me, as I'm a 38-year-old smart-ass who likes to shoot off his mouth. I've met a lot of people, read a few books, and made myself aware of a little bit of the multiplicity of human existence on this planet and throughout history. A 10-year-old in a little bible-belt town with highly religious parents and a carefully-scoured library does not have the same chance, just as this girl in the soccer story doesn't, just as millions of kids all over the world don't.

Kids are still gonna get raised by parents who have allowed religion to overwhelm every aspect of their own lives and who subsequently program this way of living as the default system for the children as well. I don't think that's healthy for the kids, but it's the luck of the draw, and I don't see any ethical way to legislate this. C'est la vie. It's just that extreme religiosity usually makes for poor civic citizenry -- the kind of mindset that carries only a hammer and sees every problem of society as a nail.

So we keep the kids out of the churches, mosques, synagogues, etc. When they're old enough to shoulder the responsibility of making conscious commitment to a particular belief system, then hats off -- even if I don't agree with them.

[NB - since we're nearly having a discussion here, I'm adjusting the thread title accordingly.]

I have never encountered Him in that way. Not that I know of. I have had an encounter with the Holy Spirit where He entered my room and I could feel Him. I mean I could feel His hands, could hear Him and feel His body etc...

I have encountered a homeless man once, who I do think was Jesus or an angel in human form. I do not know.

But I also believe that people can walk on water, walk through walls, fly, be at two places at the same time, have their heads cut off and put their heads back on and still pray, etc... Many of the things that have been lost are coming back. There are still some who may still operate in these kinds of things but it is not as common but it will be and it is coming back.

I have seen healings, signs and wonders etc... I have seen diamonds form in thin are I have have seen gold dust appear on my hands and even in my spit. That is biblical. Jesus healed a man once by His spit. And we are suppose to do greater things than He did. That is what he called us to do. We just have to get or minds out of the way. When I saw that I mean the mind of Adam after the fall and not the mind of Adam before.

When I say fall I don't mean eating an apple or banana, but I mean losing who you really are. The abilty to walk in the Glory of God without lack, or sickness, or oppresion etc.... God Bless.

I have to say Jaime, that waiting until an age to choose a religion seems an honest well intended proposition, certainly worthy of debate. It is not, I don't think, a potshot at religion or the religious. Very civil of you Sir. I suspect Kevin will see it as unoffensive. Have a good evening J.

Hmmm, kevin was faster on the draw than I would have thought. 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

That's an interesting point, Susan, about religions in which important institutional figures are identified at a young age. At the risk of seeming too conveniently a cultural relativist, I'd say that I wouldn't classify the experience(s) of a young person growing up in Nepal or Tibet or any number of other places as comparable to the Western experience(s).

I mean, I'd like to see responsible steps taken all across Africa and South America and the Middle East and Asia to protect children from direct involvement in religious organizations, just as I'd like to see steps taken on womens' rights, gay rights, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I'm not naive in my expectations on that front, which are decidedly restrained.

My original suggestion was put forth tongue-in-cheek, as I hope everyone recognizes, since there's not a hope in Hell that such an idea could ever take a single step forward in our present legislative climate. But I do believe the idea has merit nevertheless. Keep in mind that it comes from a Westerner (me) who was concerned with events in his accessible socio-political culture (which is also Western). Globally, internationally, we can't even agree that people should have clean water to drink, so I can't imagine establishing consensus on the ethics of industrial indoctrination.

Anyway, I'm gratified that people are actually responding to my Modest Proposal.

Yeah, but the fascist insect persists in trying to hoist clean air, clean water and what's worse -- crappy flourescent light bulbs on we the people.  It's preposterous!  It's egregious!

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

JVSCant

So you're ok brainwashing kids about gay rights...but somehow think they shouldn't be exposed to religion?

Interesting...

In my early morning pre-coffee dyslexia, compounded by a fake three weeks early daylight savings time, I read that sentence as ...

Boarders are not real men.

On reconsidering Jamie's plan, I'm wondering what to do about kids being kids and gravitating toward the forbidden.  Phony ID, telling their parents they're going to the school Human Rights/LGBT meeting but sneaking out to the local religious establishment as a fake adult.  

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Sure - sounds great to ban parents from raising their kids as they see fit. We can make it illegal to punish children too with spankings. Why don't we just send all our kids to the govt to take care of and they can deal with the crying, the teething, the poopie diapers, including the ADD, including everything else that parents are supposed to do as parents.

Western socities pride themselves on something we call FREEDOM. By banning kids from being involved in organized religion is not only against every single liberal philosophy of wesetern civilization and smells a little Stalin-istic.

While we are at it, I'm sure others can add items to that list to make it illegal also, like political affiliations, certain behaviors (like sex) and a slew of other things.

The very notion that religion indoctorinates ignores the fact that teaching no religion also indoctorinates is the biggest flaw in this discussion. EVERYTHING indoctorniates -- pushing religion on someone, or not pushing it both indoctorinate. Of course, people only want to look at the evils of religion as bad indoctorinating and ignore many other indoctorinating things.

Jordan .

Indoctorinate isnt' just about pushing religion on someone, even though people always use it in that definition. Any type of principle, doctorine, or teaching is still technically indoctorinating.

Do you really think that parents who will "just let their kid decide about God" isn't also indoctorinating that child with a subjective and biased viewpoint also (probably against religion)? There is such a thing as passive learning ( or in this case passive indoctorination).

In any case - western socities pride themselves on freedom....and banning parents from bringing up their kids up in their religous view points is far from freedom.

Jordan .

Woo hoo!  Jordan's back!!!

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

The original concept in post 1 only works when you live in a vacuum or if a parent keeps their child locked in a closet and away from others. There is no possible way to avoid the discussion of God or religion even in an agnostic or atheistic family. Thus, the parent MUST indoctorinate at some point in some biased way. You can't just shrug and say "because" with a kid because that's not enough of an answer for most kids. The only fair answer is to give the child every single possible answer and then let them choose the one they like the most. And that of course isn't possible because the parent will deliver that information in their own biased way -- whether they realize it or not.

But all of this is beyond the scope of the original post. Banning a child from being involved in religion simply to stop indoctorination of the child is against all aspects of freedom as we understand it in western societies. And if we start down that slippery slope, it's just a matter of time until we're banning anything we don't like.

Jordan .

Jordan, I totally agree that everything indoctrinates to some degree or other. The kind of political system we grow up under sets our boundaries for what we expect from our governments, and how we think of those of others. The prevailing cultural norms when we're young will shape our views throughout our lives.

I actually wouldn't be against preventing children from being involved in organized politics either. Both religion and politics are hot-button issues that we grown-ups love to work ourselves up over, and I think children should definitely be taught about them in the most reasonably neutral fashion achievable. Both involve subjective beliefs about largely ineffable questions. (As far as sex goes, there are already laws on that topic regarding children in most Western societies, no? Hell, there are laws for adults.)

Unnecessary legislative intrusion into individuals' lives make me angry too. And I'm pretty much running out of ways to state that I don't think it's either practical or desirable to prevent parents from raising their children in their own religion if they choose to do so. The prohibition I'm talking about is not an ideological decree, it's actually far more similar to a labor law.

Now, on the topic of freedom and children. (Freedom and adults will have to wait for another thread.) With spots of exception here and there in the West, we don't let kids work in factories, or in quite a few other jobs. We don't let them drink, buy alcohol, or enter bars. We require parents to have them educated to a minimal degree. We don't let them watch certain movies, listen to certain music, buy certain books and magazines, own certain videogames, or -- in theory, anyway -- access certain websites. In many schools, and even in some public places, we don't let them wear certain clothing. We restrict sexual activity between minors and adults. We don't let kids smoke or buy cigarettes. We restrict their access to firearms. They cannot vote, enter public service, join the military, or action legal ownership of property, including money. We restrict their ability to travel alone. When children commit crimes, they are usually not prosecuted or punished in the same way as adults.

It's an academic argument anyway, since no legislative body would touch it from the inside of a hazmat suit. Regardless, I see value in the idea. It would be a nightmare to implement, of course, but that never stopped anyone from collecting taxes.

- - - - -

Susan, if kids sneak around to form little underground Bible/Torah/Koran/whatever study groups, I think that's awesome. Kids should do more stuff like that, instead of sitting around waiting to be entertained. When I lived in Winnipeg in the late 90s, there was a group of Christian hippie-punks (quite a few of them under my stated age threshold) who called themselves the Red Herring Cathedral. They basically scraped together a bunch of money, got hold of an old run-down house in the old, run-down core of the city, fixed it up like a scrappy squat, and turned it into a church and outreach center. They made meals that were cheap or free, hosted rock shows and other weird happenings, but they also had services and reading rooms and peer counseling. I think the alterno-Christian scene at large has kinda quietly died a death since those days, which is a shame, because there was some neat stuff going on in there. In my collection I have a cd compilation they put out featuring bands that were closely associated with them; in the clear spine of each cd case, they put one large nail.

- - - - -

And yes, cybacaT, I think it's okay to brainwash kids in favor of gay rights, just as I think it's okay to brainwash them in favor of racial minority rights, the essential tenets of democracy, non-violence as the preferred mode of conflict resolution, washing their hands regularly, good nutrition and exercise, and a whole bunch of other things that make life better for a lot of people without making it unnecessarily worse for anyone.

I left these two sections together because the first was the point I was trying to make about adding the restriction of religious teaching. In most instances of restrictions you cite, there are examples of kids using their wiles to figure out out to beat the system. Maybe not for working in factories, but they figure out how to buy, borrow or steal cigarettes, alcohol, drugs legal or illegal, and firearms. They use phony ID to get into bars, buy restricted music, videogames, or tickets to R rated films, (if the 17 year old ticket taker is even paying attention.) They find the hidden copies of a parent's or older sibling's porno mags. They lie about their age to access whatever on the Internet. And I think if this fantasy vision of yours were to be implemented, it is not their own lil underground religious study groups they'd be seeking out, it is the real deal -- those mysterious buildings where only adults gather and read mysterious adult only books. While you're at it, how about banning school too! I love the concept of education-deprived youngsters striving to break into a university classroom to see what's verboten. An interesting idea for a sci-fi graphic novel and frankly, it's hard to imagine how much lower the childhood brain pool would sink with the end of public education.

Anyway, there are kids and there are kids. Most of what you discuss applies easily to the short ones -- those with only a single digit to their age. Some of it still holds true for pre-teens but the junior high school kids become very crafty about getting the goods. And for the 14-17-year olds, with each additional year there are sometimes unwritten, sometimes lawful ways to bypass the restrictions from becoming an "emancipated minor" who signs their own documents, controls their own money, and not their parents; to joining the military with parental approval UNDER the age of 18 (some of the mid-to-late 20th centuries most gallant warriors enlisted as young as 15); to the undesirable position of being tried as an adult at very tender ages. Recall the 12 year old kid in Florida who was convicted of murdering a 2 year old girl with a wrestling move he said he saw on TV and given a life sentence? (later overturned by Gov. Jeb Bush) The sexual example is more of a restriction on the ADULT; not the child as there are not too many little kids dying to be sodomized by the creep who lives in the trailer down the block.

Etc.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Regarding the current event that incited this conversation (remember that...?  the Hijab?), it seemed to me that the issue wasn't really about religion on the part of FIFA, but rather a safety issue.  They don't want little kids, with their fragile little spines, to suffer a "fragmented death," as some might say.

And the image attached to the article didn't seem to me to be tainted with the sort of propagandized sentiment the initial post suggested.  It's just a kid in a hood.  She's even somewhat smiling, not "looking sad" or even "holding a soccer ball."  Sorry, JVS.

I guess I just don't get the big deal with the Hijab.  It would be different if FIFA said Muslims weren't allowed to play or something.  Ultimately, they just don't want a bunch of snapped Muslim necks littering the field.  And who can blame them, really?

Don't be sorry, Geoff. You went to one story, which was the one I linked to, and that one had a screen-grab from a tv interview with the girl. But I'll tell you that Canadians who follow the news, especially around Montreal, got really used to photos like this:

The world is so full of this kind of stuff that, believe me, it would give me no comfort to start making it up for the sake of an argument. It's not like the story isn't a tad ridiculous to begin with.

My default position is to side with the underdog in most situations like this, and I was inclined to go with "oh, just leave the girl alone" as my instinctual reaction. When a little further reading showed that A) the family was kinda milking the situation politically (again, see left), and B) there's a fair bit of debate as to how mandatory and binding the head covering/hijab rules actually are, I finally decided that both sides were annoying.

I personally don't believe it's really a safety issue, so much as an organization using the "safety issue" defense to maintain control over their realm. In my view, they should let the parents sign a waiver indemnifying the league, coaches, other players, and presiding officials, and let her play. But I don't get to set the rules for too many things in life, it would seem.

Still, here's this (courtesy of Wikipedia): The Canadian Soccer Association's chief referee, Joe Guest, was disappointed with the Quebec regulation because the hijab does not engender any "on-field problems." He believes the FIFA regulations imply that head gear is permissible if safe.

"If you stick with Quebec's interpretation, players can't wear prescription eye-glasses. But they do," he said.

JVSCant

And yes, cybacaT, I think it's okay to brainwash kids in favor of gay rights, just as I think it's okay to brainwash them in favor of racial minority rights, the essential tenets of democracy, non-violence as the preferred mode of conflict resolution, washing their hands regularly, good nutrition and exercise, and a whole bunch of other things that make life better for a lot of people without making it unnecessarily worse for anyone.

...which brings us full circle back to the original problem.  There are too many people who think "religion and other views should never be forced upon young, developing minds!   ...unless those views are equivalent to my own personal views that is)".