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Politics
> BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza?
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| 1. Sunday, April 15, 2007 4:05 PM |
| nuart |
BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Here's the Al Jazeera article: | | | Group claims BBC reporter killed |
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And the BBC story: BBC's concern at Gaza man's fate
Sunday, 15 April 2007, 19:42 GMT 20:42 UK A Palestinian group calling itself the Al Tawhid Al Jihad brigade has issued a claim that it has killed BBC Gaza correspondent Alan Johnston.
The BBC says it is aware of the reports and is deeply concerned, but stresses there is no independent verification.
In a statement faxed to news agencies, the group contrasts the attention given to Alan Johnston's captivity with that given to Palestinians held in prison.
Mr Johnston was abducted as he returned home from his Gaza office on 12 March.
The BBC has issued a statement saying it is deeply concerned about what it is hearing.
"But we stress that at this stage," it says, "it is rumour with no independent verification".
The Palestinian Authority said it, too, had no information confirming the fate of Alan Johnston.
Little known group
Senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat repeated a call for those holding Mr Johnston to free him.
"Such despicable acts of abducting foreign journalists and others continue, the only (thing) that this is doing is destroying us as Palestinians, destroying the just cause of the Palestinian people," he told reporters.
"So I urge those who abducted Johnston, instead of circulating rumours, and I hope these rumours are only rumours, is to release him immediately and without any conditions."
A spokeswoman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London said they were also aware of the reports and were urgently looking into them.
The group claiming to have killed Mr Johnston is little known in Palestinian areas, the BBC's diplomatic correspondent James Robbins says.
Its name means Brigades of Holy War and Unity.
Protests
Since Mr Johnston's abduction, there have been many calls by both governments and individuals for his safe release.
Palestinian journalists staged several strikes in protest at his abduction and rallies were organised by Mr Johnston's BBC colleagues.
The BBC held a day of action on Thursday with al-Jazeera, CNN and Sky News joining a special live programme.
The unprecedented broadcast paid tribute to Alan Johnston's work and detailed the dangers for correspondents working in the Gaza Strip.
An online petition calling for Mr Johnston's release has gathered more than 30,000 signatures.
Alan Johnston's father, Graham, in a second broadcast appeal for his son to be freed immediately, told his kidnappers: "Please think about what this is doing to my family".
Kidnappers have abducted dozens of foreigners in Gaza, but none have been held for as long as Mr Johnston.
The 44-year-old, who is originally from Scotland, joined the BBC World Service in 1991 and has spent eight of the last 16 years as a correspondent, including periods in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan.
He has lived and worked in Gaza for three years and was the only Western reporter permanently based in the often violent and lawless territory.
His posting in Gaza had been due to end in late March.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 2. Monday, April 16, 2007 4:46 AM |
| herofix |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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I don't have a good feeling about this - the talking heads claim that most journalists who have been kidnapped in Palestinian territories have been returned fairly quickly in the past. Here's to hoping for the best.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 3. Monday, April 16, 2007 5:31 AM |
| LetsRoque |
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I agree, it doesn't look good. How this advances the Palestinian cause I do not know.
'I look for an opening, do you understand?'
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| 4. Monday, April 16, 2007 6:30 PM |
| cybacaT |
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This to me is a microcosm of what happens to Muslim apologists. He went with the best of intentions, most of the muslims welcomed his help, but that hard core of extremists just couldn't help themselves. It remains to be seen if he's really dead, but it certainly looks that way. On a wider scale, I see the same happening to our nations, albeit over decades not days, if we continue to pander to islam and welcome this venomous snake into our communities.
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| 5. Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:30 PM |
| herofix |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Mahmoud Abbas says he is alive. Captors have no political aims, looking for something like cash, he implies. Couldn't be arsed to put up a source, sorry about that.
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| 6. Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:26 PM |
| cybacaT |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Yeah they sound fairly confident he's still alive which is good news.
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| 7. Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:07 PM |
| nuart |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Was this the same Mahmoud Abbas would said Yasser Arafat was healthy as a horse but only had a small cold? The same guy who says Gilad Shalit's release is imminent. Held since July 2006. It may be true or it may be false. It is, after all, Gaza, Jake. Susan Missing BBC correspondent 'alive' Missing BBC reporter Alan Johnston is still alive, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas says. "Our intelligence services have confirmed to me that he's alive," Mr Abbas told reporters in Sweden. Johnston, 44, has not been seen since he was seized at gunpoint on his way home in Gaza City on 12 March. On Sunday, an unknown militant group said it had killed him, but the BBC said and Palestinian officials said they could not verify the claim. Mr Abbas said he knew which group was holding Mr Johnston but did not give any details. In Gaza, a senior security official said the earlier reports of Mr Johnston's death were unfounded. Mohammed al-Masri said that the available evidence suggested that he was alive and in secure conditions. 'Good news' Mr Johnston's father, Graham, said he was delighted at the report. "That's good news, that's really good news," he said. "This is the news I've been waiting to hear and I don't think the Palestinian president would say this unless he was convinced it was true. "But we still don't have proof of life. That's what I want desperately. It's been nearly six weeks now." In a statement, the BBC also welcomed the report, adding that it wanted "firm evidence of Alan's well-being and his immediate release". The signs are encouraging, but Gaza is a fractured, lawless place where truth and rumour are hard to distinguish, says the BBC's Keith Adams. Protests against Mr Johnston's kidnap have been held in Britain, the Palestinian territories and other parts of the Middle East almost daily since his abduction. On Wednesday, a leader of Mr Abbas' Fatah movement jailed in Israel, Marwan Barghouti, added his voice to calls for the reporter's release.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 8. Monday, April 30, 2007 7:54 AM |
| herofix |
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More of the same really. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6608141.stm
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 9. Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:59 AM |
| nuart |
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Rather than a new Gaza thread, I'll just post this update on conditions between Fatah and Hamas. Civil War? This one is written by a journalist who hasn't been abducted. Yet. Susan 
Eyewitness: Carnage in Gaza
| IBRAHIM BARZAK, AP, THE JERUSALEM POST | May. 16, 2007 |
With battles raging outside my building and my windows blown out by bullets, I sit in a dark hallway outside my apartment with my wife and baby. It's dangerous inside and outside. Today I have seen people shot before my eyes, I heard the screams of terrified women and children in a burning building, and I argued with gunmen who wanted to take over my home. I have seen a lot in my years as a journalist in Gaza, but this is the worst it's been. Much of the fighting is taking place right here in my neighborhood. I went outside a few times to report, just around the house. I saw a building on fire after Hamas gunmen attacked, and I heard the screams of people who could not get out because of the gun battles. My building is across from a Palestinian government complex, and both sides are fighting for control of the area. They're taking over rooftops. My apartment is on the top floor of this five-story building. This morning some Fatah gunmen tried to force their way into my apartment so they could shoot from my windows, overlooking the Palestinian government compound. I had an argument with them, and they left. There have been clashes between Hamas and Fatah before, but there are dangerous new elements this time. Now they are arresting or even shooting people for the way they look. If you have a beard, you might be arrested by Fatah security for looking Islamic. If you have a chain around your neck or on your arm, Hamas gunmen might shoot you because you look secular. The random use of weapons and explosives is out of control. People who consider themselves the elite, the politicians, sit with the Egyptian mediators at night and then come out with statements about a truce, and in the morning we see the opposite has occurred. These people are not controlling anything. I saw several people shot right in front of my home today. I'm preparing myself for even worse violence. Right now there are three couples, neighbors, sitting here on the floor. It's dark because there is no electricity. We are chatting, trying to calm ourselves over the crazy clashes and the sounds of heavy gunfire and explosions, which have not let up since 2 a.m. in our neighborhood. Each of us has a baby, and they're playing. My baby, Hikmet, is nine-months old. I'm astonished by his behavior. In the morning he was scared by the gunfire and he cried and called "mama," which is his first word. Then he fell asleep for three hours. Since he woke up, he's been calm despite all the shooting. Tuesday was my 30th birthday. I was born on "al-Naqba" day, "the catastrophe," as Palestinians refer to the creation of Israel. I'm afraid a catastrophe is happening now.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 10. Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:57 AM |
| nuart |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Speaking of Gaza, where lots of stuff in ongoing, there's this regarding an assassination plot via Doctors Without Borders. Doctors Without Borders! Sigh. 
Shin Bet uncovers plot to kill Olmert
| yaakov katz and jpost.com staff, THE JERUSALEM POST | May. 17, 2007 |
A Palestinian from the Gaza Strip who works for the humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders has been arrested for allegedly plotting to assassinate Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) revealed Thursday. Mazab Bashir, 25, from Deir el-Balah began working with Doctors Without Borders five years ago. On April 19, he confessed during a Shin Bet interrogation that for months, he had been collecting intelligence on senior Israeli officials - including Olmert and a number of Knesset members. Bashir met with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in September 2006, and said that the assassination was meant to avenge the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Bashir also underwent arms training with the PFLP, and was picked to carry out the planned assassination. He told the Shin Bet that he had collected information on the Internet to use to target MKs, but then realized that the MKs in question did not live in Jerusalem, the only Israeli city to which his permit granted him access. According to the officials, after he realized that the security surrounding Olmert was impenetrable, Bashir decided in December 2006 to kill David Be'eri, head of the Elad organization, a group involved in purchasing Arab homes in Jerusalem's Old City. That same month, he underwent combat training in the Gaza Strip in order to learn to kill without using weapons. In January 2007, Bashir again entered Israel again on behalf of Doctors Without Borders, and began collecting information on Be'eri. He made additional trips to Jerusalem in February and March, and on April 18. He was arrested on April 19. During his interrogation, Bashir said he had planned to return to Gaza to complete his combat training and learn, among other things, how to break necks. He said he intended to use his skills to kill Be'eri. Elad has increased Be'eri's security following the threats to his life. Bashir was indicted Thursday in the Jerusalem District Court. Duncan Mclean, head of 'Doctors Without Borders' in the region, told Israel Radio, "I don't think embarrassed would be the right word. We are very sad for Bashir who has been working for us for almost six years. But we would like to make it very clear that we make a distinction between his professional work and what he does on his personal time in the sense that all our staff is hired for professional reasons and I don't think our organization can be held liable for every aspect of their life." According to Mclean, all of the organization's staff members undergo an IDF security check
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 11. Saturday, June 2, 2007 11:20 AM |
| nuart |
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And now it's June. The "militants" or whatever you want to call them (how about terrorists?) have decided to air a video of Johnson. You know it's hard to maintain interest without the occasional video. What with Lebanese governments strafing Palestinian refuge camps where other "extremists" or "fighters" or whatever you want to call them are holed up, it's hard to command much media attention. You'll be glad to know that the BBC reporter has been treated well by his "hosts." Well, for cryin' out loud, that's a given. "Guests" are always treated well. We've heard that often enough from the British, most recently from the Royal Navy guests of Ahmadinejad. But Johnson isn't quite as sanquine about those vile Israelis. Nooooooo. Read on. And think of it as an unexpected and prolonged vacation. AJ Soprano may have put it best in a recent episode where he tells his shrink about his Middle Eastern studies class. "The dicked-up Middle East." 
Gaza: Video aired of kidnapped reporter
| AP and JPost.com staff, THE JERUSALEM POST | Jun. 2, 2007 |
Kidnapped British reporter Alan Johnston appeared Friday in a videotape posted on an Islamic militant Web site, saying his captors had treated him well, denouncing Israel and blasting British and US Mideast policy. It was the first sign of life from him since he was abducted almost three months ago. There was no way to tell when the video was recorded, and it was not clear why his captors chose this time to post it. The British Broadcasting Corp. journalist, who has been covering the Palestinian territories for three years, has a reputation for objectivity, and it seemed likely he was reciting what he was told to say. The videotape appeared on the Al-Ekhlaas Web site, frequently used by Islamic militants. It bore the logo of the Army of Islam, the shadowy Palestinian group that had been believed to be holding the 45-year-old reporter, and opened with Arabic chanting and verses from the Quran. The video ended with Johnston about to outline conditions for his release, only to have the tape cut away to an unidentified voice in Arabic demanding freedom for Islamic prisoners, including a radical cleric with ties to Al-Qaida imprisoned in Britain. The demand was accompanied by English subtitles. Johnston looked fit and calm during the three minutes he spoke. "My captors have treated me very well, they've fed me well, there has been no violence towards me at all and I am in good health," he said in his opening remarks - then launched into a litany of complaints about Israel, and British and US Mideast policy. "In three years here in the Palestinian territories I witnessed the huge suffering of the Palestinian people, and my message is that the suffering is continuing and it is unacceptable," he said, blaming Israel. He denounced Britain and the US for causing suffering in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Palestinian territories, and condemned Britain specifically for "occupying Muslim lands against the will of the people in those places." Johnston skewered Britain for its role in Israel's creation on land the British once administered, calling Israel "the cause of all the suffering of the Palestinian people." "We the British are completely to blame, along with the Americans, for the situation in Iraq," he added, while "the British are the main force in Aghanistan, causing all the trouble to all the simple Afghans who simply want to live." Johnston started relaying a message to his family, but was cut off. Subtitles then appeared on the videotape, saying, "The BBC refused to take this message to his family." Johnston was shown seated from the waist up, wearing what looked like a red sweatshirt, and speaking against a dark gray backdrop. British officials were studying the video, the Foreign Office spokesman said, but "it is far too early to say whether this is a recent tape or to make any further comment." "We are aware of the reports and we are investigating urgently," said Simon Wilson, the BBC bureau chief in Jerusalem. The company planned to issue a statement later Friday, a BBC spokesman in London said. Gaza-based analyst Shaker Shabat said the tape was a signal that Johnston's release was imminent. "They are showing us evidence that Johnston is alive, and that is to seal the deal," Shabat said. "This is an indication that a deal is almost finished and Johnston will come out soon." First footage of two Fox News journalists kidnapped in the summer of 2006 was released days before they were freed after two weeks in captivity. But they were held by a different group, and there was no guarantee that the same pattern would hold in Johnston's case. Last week, an aide to Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of the Islamic militant Hamas group said Johnston was alive and well, and could soon be set free. Palestinian officials have said they knew where to find Johnston, but have held back on raiding the hideout at Britain's request, for fear of harming him. The Palestinian government has instead tried to negotiate with the captors, while the British government has held talks with the Bin Laden associate it holds, Abu Qatada, in an effort to secure Johnston's release. A Spanish judge once described Abu Qatada, a cleric of Palestinian-Jordanian descent, as Bin Laden's "spiritual ambassador in Europe." On Friday, Palestinian Information Minister Mustafa Barghouti demanded Johnston's immediate release. "He has to be released immediately and unconditionally because his arrest and kidnapping is not only against freedom of press and human rights but also because it hurts the Palestinian people," Barghouti said. Johnston has been missing far longer than any foreigner kidnapped in Gaza, and his kidnapping has led most news outlets to keep their foreign reporters out of the territory - a development the Palestinian government sees as hurting their people's cause. Johnston's disappearance has touched off numerous protests and solidarity marches in London and the Palestinian territories. On April 15th, a previously unknown group said they killed him, but Palestinian officials dismissed that claim.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 12. Sunday, June 3, 2007 1:07 AM |
| herofix |
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Hang on, so you're pro-Lebanese government now, Susan? Or do you think now is as good a time as any for Israel to level an airport or something over there? I can't believe this reporter's been held for as long as this. I assume if he has lived in 'the territories' for 3 years he speaks the lingo? If it were me I think I'd just play it totally cool, try to crack a few jokes, maybe play some cards, and then jump out a window and run like hell unexpectedly one day. Or, I'd sit in the corner and crap myself. One of those two.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 13. Sunday, June 3, 2007 12:36 PM |
| nuart |
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Huh, what??? I've always been for the government of Lebanon, feckless as they might be. Always. Well, except for that Hezbollah faction of the Lebanese government who wreak havoc there as they do in Israel and elsewhere. I don't recall saying anything about Israel getting involved in this uh... matter. Seems to me it's between Palestinians and BBC-ers, right? Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 14. Monday, June 4, 2007 7:21 AM |
| herofix |
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But I thought I recalled that you were not-particularly-bothered about Israel's recent hostilities in Lebanon because they didn't reign in Hezbollah. Perhaps I am mis-remembering, but I thought you said something to the effect that if a government wasn't 'strong' enough to corral the Islamists within its own borders than Israel had a right to bomb the bejeesus out of Beirut's shiny new airport and other civilian infrastructure despite (unsurprisingly) official Lebanese objections to that. It is off-topic I know, I only mentioned it because I sensed a pro-Lebanese government attitude in your post above, but recalled support that was lukewarm at best during the July War. Nit-picking.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 15. Monday, June 4, 2007 9:44 AM |
| nuart |
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No, it's not nit-picking, Andrew. (Even if the word is "rein" as in a horse; and not "reign" as in rule, but never mind -- I would never be nit-picky about spelling! That's soooo petty. ) It's not nit-picking. It's fundamental to the discussion of Israel's use of force. So, for the sake of clarifying my position, here's an instant replay from my take on last summer's war: 1. July 2006 - IDF member, 19-year-old Gilad Shalit is kidnapped across the border in Israel and taken to Gaza, the now completely Jew-free area whence all settlers vacated many months before. 2. Coincidentally, on Israel's northern border, two more Israeli soldiers are kidnapped within Israel (killing 8 others in the process) and taken to Lebanon within days of the earlier kidnapping.
3. Israel's new PM (who, unfortunately, is not Ariel Sharon and ill-equipped for the challenge) demands the return of the men. Doesn't happen. Natch. 4. The abductions are seen as overt declarations of war by Hezbollah, a stateless terrorist entity, which is also seen as being financed and possibly also directed by Syria and Iran, also overt enemies of Israel. Olmert orders incursions into both areas promising a "very, very, very painful" response. Israel hits Lebanon.
5. The Lebanese government of Sinora is not able to control Hezbollah as per the UN mandates of years before. While at first he seems in quasi-sympathy with the Israeli position, he has real politique to contend with. The official Lebanese government is still unable to control Hezbollah's actions. Israelis advance by land, by sea and by air.
Final Analysis: Miscalculations on the part of the Olmert government? A. The extent of Hezbollah's fire power B. The degree to which Hezbollah would tolerate massive destruction to the country they occupy. C. The differences between the Israeli military of 2006 and the earlier 1948, 1967 or 1973 models.
Proper calculation made by Israel? A. Knowing full well the rather universal disdain for the country and realizing they stand alone in a hostile region with enemies up close and far-flung, they acted for their own personal protection. Israel has had a basic tenet of the use of force. Act defensively as in the case of El Al Airlines or everyday security measures on the streets of Israel. But when hit, hit back with ten times the force. All that has done is allow the vulnerable state to survive but in a near constant state of warfare.
You say I wasn't particularly bothered?!?! I was plenty bothered last summer. I spent much of my time at the Twin Peaks Festival holed up in my hotel room watching the coverage. Back home again, more so. It broke my f***ing heart!!!!!!! But at the end of the day, I understand the plight of the Israelis. I respect their intellect and their survival mechanisms. I comprehend the tenacity of their most virulent enemies. I believe that if tomorrow all Israel's close-by regional enemies opted to stop attacking Israel, there would be peace between Israelis and Arabs. (those close by anyway -- not Iran or Syria, etc.) If on the other hand, Israel were to be devoid of all weaponry tomorrow, they'd be swallowed up and destroyed by Wednesday. I believe that over its brief half century+ history many Israeli governments have attempted to coexist peaceably in the region and at times, with relative success. There have been momentary lulls in the violence. Still the darkest part of me believes the day may come when half the world's miniscule population of Jews, the citizens of Israel -- those mere 6 million souls (interesting number, no?) -- will no longer have a state called Israel and the diaspora will continue. The most certain part of my inner being believes that such a loss will be the world's loss, even if the BBC, Al Jazeera and their adherents are rooting for the other side. So yes, obviously I was bothered. Am bothered. Lebanon!?! Lebanon is -- or was -- one of those countries where Christians comprised a significant part of the population. The numbers and efficacy of the Christian population are shrinking as the years go by, even if there is a nominal head of state who must, by Lebanese law, be a Christian. It didn't warm the cockles of my heart to see the people of Lebanon bombed, especially after the long horrendous days of the 1980s where the word "Beirut" became the characterziation of chaos, death and devastation. It didn't leave me unfazed to watch the injured and the dead being carted away. (even if there were times when the same bodies were carted away over and over. Even if some of the dead bodies being removed from rubble were, in fact, alive and well. But that's another story in the proproganda side of war.) I take sides. Yes, I recognize the flaws of the Israeli side as I do with my own country. I've been banging on this dead horse for so many years now, but will repeat, even the neutral will ultimately have to fall down on one side or another. The perfectly formed and executed state will not be an option. As the bard warbled, you're gonna have to serve somebody. It may the devil or it may be the lord... But I digress... March 2007 and the abduction of Johnson, who is not a citizen of israel. Why in the Wide World of Sports would I support israel bombing Lebanon (?) to bring about his release? What exactly does a foreign journalist's abduction have to do with internal Israeli security? Nah uh. Don't see it. On a graduating scale of those whose pain and suffering transmits the same to my hard heart, the tribulations of Alan Johnson doesn't approach that of Gilad Shalit, Ehud Goldwasser or Eldad Regev, those three who have never returned since last July. I don't have the answer. Far better minds than mine have tried to sort out the dicked-up Middle East. (thanks for the terminology, AJ Soprano) I just know which side I'd like to prevail although it brings me no pleasure when innocent populations on all sides end up maimed or destroyed.
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 16. Monday, June 4, 2007 12:22 PM |
| herofix |
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Gah! Shame on me for that spelling error. Thank you for so gracefully pointing it out in your constructive manner. No, no, I didn't mean that Lebanon really had anything to do with this BBC reporter situation, I just confused the discussion by going off topic. Anyway though, as someone who some right-wing commentators might think had 'blame America first' or 'anti-Israeli' views, but doesn't personally think they do, let me be clear that I believe that Israel has a right to self-defence just the same as any other nation-state. Don't think I think they don't. Nevertheless, they're not above criticism, and as the stronger and more 'developed' power in any tit-for-tat between Israel and Lebanon, or Israel and the Palestinian Authority, it is entirely rational to be first to hold them to account. And furthermore, as you state, Israel is known to attack her enemies (or anyone in the same general area as her enemies) ten times as hard as she's attacked herself. I know that's not for want of trying on the other side...Hezbollah would like nothing more than to see the end of every Jew in Israel. I'm not being purposefully myopic. But...you know...Israel bombed an airport and loads of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon in order to get at Hezbollah. It isn't the fact that it was a misguided strategy that didn't work that I'm criticising....I'm saying that it wasn't a justified and proportional response....as well as being counter-productive in the long term. It's that 'ten times harder' thing that has strengthened Hezbollah's and Hamas's hands, is the way I read it. And even more maddeningly, left loads of innocent people dead...not by the hand of religious fanatic terrorists...but by the hand of a democratic and stable state.........somehow I find that worse. Why? I don't know. Not a perfect example, but what would you find more maddening and insulting...someone you love being killed by that Korean kid in Virginia, or if they were killed by a cop using indiscriminate firepower who considered them expendable just by dint of being in the same vicinity as the madman? To me, the latter would be worse, somehow.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 17. Monday, June 4, 2007 2:27 PM |
| Raymond |
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Pipe dream department. Israel is a tiny country with no oil , all it has is a stretch of seacoast and yet it has managed to prosper with rockets, and 10 y o suicide bombers and Hezbollah throwing deadly monkey wrenches in the works. How about an alliance for peace and prosperity among the immediate states envolved. Business accumen for the neighbors and relative peace for the entire area? The concentration of hate on that Isreali strip of land - about a whoping 50 miles across in it's width - is a failed and myopic approach for that promising region. Yes? No ? Isreal has given back the Gaza Strip -which is now in it's worse condition ever with Fatah and Hamas at each others' throats. Even ole Cyrus the Persian king from antiquity allowed controlled peoples to carry on their religion and engage in commerce with Persia and other kingdoms. Perhaps a tax was levied, but a more enlightened governance was in place. Look how far we have come in two and a half thousand years. Ah, progress, isn't it wonderful? Give me a Cyrus and keep that Ahminajian and his band of Mullahs. The entire Middle East could be a prosperous productive area for all.
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| 18. Monday, June 4, 2007 10:49 PM |
| nuart |
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Andrew wrote: It isn't the fact that it was a misguided strategy that didn't work that I'm criticising....I'm saying that it wasn't a justified and proportional response....as well as being counter-productive in the long term. It's that 'ten times harder' thing that has strengthened Hezbollah's and Hamas's hands, is the way I read it. And even more maddeningly, left loads of innocent people dead...not by the hand of religious fanatic terrorists...but by the hand of a democratic and stable state.........somehow I find that worse. Why? I don't know. Not a perfect example, but what would you find more maddening and insulting...someone you love being killed by that Korean kid in Virginia, or if they were killed by a cop using indiscriminate firepower who considered them expendable just by dint of being in the same vicinity as the madman? To me, the latter would be worse, somehow.
Ehem. The war that began last summer may not be over just yet, Andrew. Most Israelis do not believe it to be so. This is probably just another of those innumerable lulls. So perhaps it is not the time to judge the war's efficacy. Some things did happen as a result of Israel's bombing of Lebanon, however. That major something would NOT have happened with the so-called the "proportional" response. The international community -- UNIFIL -- did bring troops to southern Lebanon and, well, so it seems anyhow, they are monitoring the situation and controlling Hezbollah. Maybe Hezbollah has alliances with them or maybe Hezbollah is simply lying low. Maybe some are with the Al Qaeda group up in Tripoli who have "occupied" (ohmygawd, how absurd it gets!) the Palestinian "refugee camps" in that part of Lebanon which is sort of kinda no longer occupied by Syria. Except by proxy. Nor occupied by Israel. My head spins. Talk about the viability of states, how long can Lebanon survive? Out of the "loads of dead" -- around 1000 on the Lebanese side, as I recall -- not all were innocents, though Al Jazeera would like us to believe that. There are estimates of hundreds of Hezbollah terrorists among the dead, another plus for Israel and for Lebanon, which may explain the government's willingness to take on the siege at the Palestinian refugee camps. Hezbollah cannot be counted on to properly distinquish between "fighter" or civilian. Truth be told, were we ever really able to quantify the deaths -- which ones were caused by Israelis and which ones were actually innocent young children or innocent women, I believe the dead terrorists would outnumber them. But these figures are not ascertainable with any certainty. History shows us not to trust the Arab casaulty figures. Think Jenin "massacre." While it cannot be described as a clear cut victory for Israel like the 6 Day War, they did take out plenty of the enemy's fire power during that month. Shiny new airport? That airport was not destroyed. The runways were blown up strategically and not completely as I recall, in such a way that it would need to be repaved but not rebuilt from the ground up. Every target was carefully considered with Israel's efforts to avoid civilian casualties. It is not the criticism of Israel that I find disturbing. I understand a democratic state is held to a higher standard than an amorphous loosely knit group of terrorists united soley by their obsessive hatred of Israel. But, it is the exclusion of almost any other country on planet earth (except for the USA) that I find so short-sighted and willfully prejudicial. It is the impossibly high standards demanded by Israel. Hey, here's a way to quantify this special disdain status of Israel.l Just to do a burning flag count any week of the year anywhere on the planet. When was the last time you witnessed a Chinese flag ablaze? How about a Belgian flag? The hottest sellers remain the Stars & Stripes and the Mogen David. Innocent people die when terrorist base their operations in civilian areas, as you may have noticed. For Hezbollah, it's a win-win opportunity. Innocent people die in war. Same as it ever was. Fighting a stateless, uniform-free, amorphous enemy is a special art. Perhaps the von Clausewitz's and Sun Tzus of the 21st century will write those how-to volumes and perhaps there will one day be a bloodless war. It's just not very likely. Maybe the reason you find it more disturbing that a democratic state has caused those deaths is that you do not fully accept the premise of that country being under a life-threatening siege. Maybe your plan -- "proportional" tit-for-tat warfare -- has been tried over the half century. There have also been countless times where Israel has completely turned the other cheek. Times when they've targetted specific terrorists and dispatched them where they found them. A simple reading of their history will reveal the multitudes of strategies employed by both Likud and Labor parties. Israelis understand it is in their best interest to find a strategy that works for their survival. Milliions of Arabs and Muslims have the opposite view. I'm sure you must be aware of the Golda Meir quote about forgiving Arabs for killing our children but not forgiving them for making Israelis kill theirs. Something to that effect. Killing takes its tolls on the victorious too, you know. If you read the two major newspapers in Israel -- Jerusalem Post on the right and Haaretz on the left -- you"ll find the same type of debates amongst Israelis. Thank your lucky stars you have not been assigned to task of solving Israel's problems and designing that kinder, gentler approach. Have a little humility and understand that others with your level of thoughtfulness, intelligence, sensitivity and human kindness have given it their very best in an earnest attempt to live harmoniously in Israel. I have a hunch that you might find yourself right at home during some of these discussion in the Knesset. I've read and reread your final analogy and can't quite decipher the parallel to Israelis and Arabs. The cop -- is he there to apprehend a mass murderer but fires away and accidentally kills more students? Is that the premise? Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 19. Tuesday, June 5, 2007 7:23 AM |
| herofix |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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I certainly don't mean to be arrogant. And I try every day to practice humility. That is one respect in which every human being falls short of the glory of God. On the other hand, what good are one's instincts and reasonings if kept to oneself? I don't even for a second suggest that my knowledge of these Middle East affairs is 'above average' or 'satisfactory' let alone 'good'. Nevertheless, I just want to go on record with what I think, something that any elected politician could probably tell you is risky for your credibility over time. With the limited knowledge that I have, and the impossibility of knowing actual body counts, it's my assertion that even if we accept a 'low' figure for the loss of life of those who were not Hezbollah and therefore to my mind innocents, the strategy of invading Lebanon last year will be ultimately counter-productive in the sense that it will harden the hearts of people against Israel and make them more prone to accepting anti-Jewish propaganda, which in turn continues to limit the possibility of achieving a widely agreed upon peaceful resolution to hostilities. I don't believe that the loss of life and the means in which those lives were lost is justified by the kidnapping (and perhaps likely, murders) committed by Hezbollah prior to the invasion. On a side note: I meant to mention in my last post that you certainly struck a chord (harhar) with your invocation of that particular Dylan song above. My father was a Dylan nut, but upon his religious conversion put away his previous secular pre-occupations. When Dylan converted, I think it made my father extremely happy, and in my young childhood I heard that particular song countless times as my father dusted off his turntable and was 'allowed' to enjoy his albums (well, select ones) again. As I've said numerous times though, I still disagree about the necessity to 'take sides'.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 20. Tuesday, June 5, 2007 7:35 AM |
| herofix |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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The analogy was meant to evoke a situation like this: Suppose that a fanatical madman has been murdering people based on bizzare religious beliefs. Let us assume that over a two week period he has managed to kill a dozen people all of whom were complete innocents. He retreats eventually to his apartment to make a self-congratulatory home video. The police receive intelligence of his location, and the order is given to blow his house up with him inside, and in the explosion the people (let us assume four people for the sake of this argument: a sixty year old woman and her ten-year old grandson, an unemployed man in his early twenties, and a middle manager for an IT company) who live either side of him are killed. Are their deaths justifiable? It's not meant to be a perfect analogy, just a philosophical thought experiment.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 21. Tuesday, June 5, 2007 8:32 AM |
| Raymond |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Hi Hero. This is Susan using Raymonds's sign in. ( Not really). If you have a maniac who is out to murder as many people as possible, it makes sense to me to take him out ASAP. The fact that 4 innocents die is a heartbreaker, but to let the terrorist live to kill 10, 30, 100 or more innocents is even worse. You are not gonna talk the creep out of his mission are you ? What a f-cked up world where these murderous child killers are heros to some idiots, bravely using innocent human shields. I am obviously in no way addressing you Hero, but there seems to be a large following of people in the Mid East and Europe who want the Jews exterminated. Hopefully their rock star bombers will not be successful. Tit for tat is a suicide approach as the ready to die terrorists outnumber the Jews and there tiny slice of land. To bad the Mid East holocaust enthusiasts didn't have the slightest ability to create, build, trade or do any productive endeavors. They do not however. They are barbarians, no make that savages. Mental cases to boot.
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| 22. Tuesday, June 5, 2007 8:26 AM |
| nuart |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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| QUOTE: The analogy was meant to evoke a situation like this: Suppose that a fanatical madman has been murdering people based on bizzare religious beliefs. Let us assume that over a two week period he has managed to kill a dozen people all of whom were complete innocents. He retreats eventually to his apartment to make a self-congratulatory home video. The police receive intelligence of his location, and the order is given to blow his house up with him inside, and in the explosion the people (let us assume four people for the sake of this argument: a sixty year old woman and her ten-year old grandson, an unemployed man in his early twenties, and a middle manager for an IT company) who live either side of him are killed. Are their deaths justifiable? It's not meant to be a perfect analogy, just a philosophical thought experiment. |
Hey, Andrew, I wasn't trying to say you were arrogant. I would never! That's not you. It was just my philosophical thought experiment for you. I wanted you to place yourself into the minds of past and present Israeli leaders and to ask yourself if they were so dim as to not have considered your point of view -- at least some of them -- through the decades. Now, as for your imperfect analogy. Here we are in complete agreement. It is far from perfect. In fact, it borders on irrelevancy to the Israeli-Arab situation but I will answer it just the same. There are many examples of the first part -- the fanatical homicidal madman. That's easy enough to contemplate. They rise to the red zone level of culpability. No justification. No excuses. The second part of the equation is reminiscent of the Philadelphia "MOVE" police assault where the houses of the Rastafarian pan-African cult were blown up by a helicopter assault and children were killed along with others. Or the Waco attack with David Koresh. Since those events really happened, I can speak to them I suppose. Are the deaths justifiable? Hmmm, I'm sure you are asking morally and not legally. Once again I see it as a sliding scale of culpability. All levels of leadership behind such a perilous and brazen assault have to be examined after the fact. Sometimes, in the heat of the situation, the rapid fluid nature of two groups of armed individuals will put innocents in jeopardy. Depending on just how stupid the leadership was and how ineffectual the implentation, so goes the level of culpability. It would rarely, in my eyes, rise to the level of a Virginia Tech shooter. Life is risky. Taking sides - I recall a lengthy article from the post-Vietnam era where surving Vietnamese people told their individual stories to a reporter. You know how it is where some things just stick in your head and their meaning takes root over the years. This one man spoke of how impossible it was to be neutral. If you were of a mind that you just wanted to try to live your life independently of the war, you couldn't because one side or the other would be suspicious that you were against them. But I don't know. The concept of not feeling more inclined in one direction or another in almost any circumstance is an alien proposition to me so I'm wondering if maybe we are quibbling over the details of "taking sides." See, I think you do have a preference when it comes to two competing and generalized social orders as exemplified by the Palestinian and the Israelis. Even if you are critical of one more so than the other, I think we both know which of the two you'd choose were you in the uncomfortable position of having to pick a side. That knowledge is good enough for me. Bob Dylan. So many wise words. I'll be sorting through some of them in the next day or so. Got a call this morning that my friend in New York will not make it through the day. She is a great fan of Dylan as is the whole core group of this circle of friends. She'll be coming back home to Los Angeles for her funeral. I'm working on my eulogy. How to reduce a thirty-seven year friendship into a few sentences. So many memories... Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 23. Tuesday, June 5, 2007 9:08 AM |
| nuart |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Back to the subject at hand -- that of a BBC journalist, one of the few journalists who was still reporting from Gaza, having been kidnapped by an unknown faction of a people for whom he feels enormous sympathy -- here's a BBC update. Note the use of the term "captured" for Gilad Shalit while Alan Johnston was "abducted." Implication = a valid military action against the IDF soldier versus the illegal kidnapping of a journalist. BBC subtle language letting you know where their hearts are on the subject. Taking sides, if you will.
Palestinians 'united' on Johnston A senior Palestinian figure has said all factions are united in condemning the abduction of the BBC's Gaza correspondent, Alan Johnston. Saeb Erekat, adviser to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, said military action would be justified to free him. His comments followed the release on Friday of a video of Mr Johnston, the first since his abduction on 12 March. Mr Johnston's parents welcomed the video, in which he says he is in good health and is being treated well. Graham and Margaret Johnston said the video, reportedly posted on the internet by the Army of Islam group, had given them "renewed hope". "He looked well," Mr Johnston's father said. "Apparently he has been well cared for as he said, although I have to say it is very distressing to see him in such circumstances." "I would just hope this maybe is the end game. We hope and pray it is." Prime Minister Tony Blair, on a visit to South Africa, said the British government was doing everything it possibly could to secure his release. A BBC statement read: "This is a highly distressing time for them and for his friends and his colleagues. We repeat our call for his immediate release." Demands On the video, Mr Johnston, seated and wearing a red sweatshirt, said his captors had treated him very well. "They have fed me well, there has been no violence towards me at all and I'm in good health," he said. He also called for an end to Western sanctions that have been imposed on the Palestinian government. "Everyday there are Palestinians arrested, imprisoned for no reason. People are killed on a daily basis. The economic suffering is terrible, especially here in Gaza." Mr Johnston also said the British government was working to occupy Muslim lands, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, against the will of the people there. At the end of the tape, the Army of Islam demanded the release of Abu Qatada, a Palestinian-born Islamic cleric who is suspected of close links to al-Qaeda and is currently held by the UK government as a threat to national security. 'Military operation' In an interview with BBC's Newsnight programme, Mr Erekat said he believed the video was a "proof of life", but also that the BBC journalist was speaking under duress.
| ARMY OF ISLAM FACTS Small, Islamist armed group operating in Gaza Splinter group of the Popular Resistance Committees Seeks liberation of Palestine and an Islamic state Influenced by, but not affiliated with, al-Qaeda Led by Mumtaz Dugmush, also known as Abu Muhammad, a member of a powerful clan One of three groups allegedly holding captured Israeli soldier Cpl Gilad Shalit | "To have him say what he said today in a tape which was circulated the world over, I believe this harms the Palestinian cause," he said. Mr Erekat said the Palestinian Authority did not know anything about the Army of Islam, or its alleged leaders, the Dugmush clan. "These people are nothing more than gangsters," he added. "I don't think they are linked to anyone." Nevertheless, he said Mr Abbas was exerting pressure on his cabinet and all the Palestinian factions to ensure Mr Johnston's release. "Fatah, Hamas, all the factions, the president, the prime minister, in this particular case, they see eye to eye," Mr Erekat said. "We are all unified as far as condemning this despicable and shameful act." Mr Erekat said the current situation could not be tolerated and that the government simply had to act. "We must really determine where his location is, and then move... even if it takes a military or a security operation," he said. Mr Johnston, 45, was the only Western reporter permanently based in Gaza and his abduction has triggered appeals for his release from lawmakers and rights groups around the world. More than 130,000 people have now signed an online petition calling for his release.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 24. Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:39 AM |
| Raymond |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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While not related to the captured/murdered journalist it is about Gaza. Notice the leap in death and mayhem after the Isreali's gave Gaza to the Gazagians. Hamas may be enjoying a tactical victory over Fatah. The outcome of this carnage ,as everything in the middle east, is clouded. One scenario offered in the JPost today reads like this: For its part, Hamas may find that its victory over Fatah is only the beginning of its problems. The group will need to deal with a hostile international community, tension with Egypt, internal ideological divisions and provision of services to Gaza's civilian population. Similar to King Pyrrhus, whose victory over the Romans was so costly that his men were later defeated, Hamas may find that though it won the battle, it has ultimately lost the war.
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| 25. Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:59 AM |
| nuart |
RE: BBC Reporter - Lifeless in Gaza? |
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Yes, Raymond, I've been watching this chaos closely and wondering the same thing. What happens if Hamas prevails. It's not as if Fatah is a lot better, I'm afraid. Hamas like Hezbollah or Al Qaeda or the Taliban are not known for their constructive programs. Their elevated philosophical plans for bettering societies. They, like many long-term guerrilla groups or revolutionaries worry more about the immediate goal -- destroying the enemy. Enemies, in this case. And like the case with the Cuban revolution or the Sandinista revolution or the Algerian revolution, winning the battle is not winning the war. Or the peace. Here's a good article from today's American Thinker.
June 14, 2007Palestine: The Prison By James Lewis
So you have the bad luck to be born into an Arab family in Gaza. As a toddler you get to watch the Mickey Martyr Club on Hamas TV, to begin a lifelong process of indoctrination into the nobility of suffering, suicide, and killing the enemy. But suppose your parents get tired of the constant war drumming, which is bad for children and other living things. Today they're caught in a vicious crossfire between Fatah and Hamas. Can you move out of the war zone?
Not according to the Mufti of the Palestinian Authority. In an official fatwah from on high, this gentleman declares: "No Permission to Emigrate from Palestine."
"There has been much talk in Palestine about emigration, especially among the young people, due to the difficult security and economic situation. This is being done in search of a better life abroad. Many are continuing to rush to the gates of the embassies and consulates of the Western nations with requests for visas in order to reside permanently in those countries.
"We hereby declare that emigration from the blessed lands is not permitted according to religious law. The people living in these areas must remain in their homes and must not leave them to conquerors. Those who abide by this ruling will perform an honorable deed and will support the Aksa Mosque." [emphasis added]
In other words, you're in a PA prison, cannon fodder for the jihad. Get used to it, kid.
For almost sixty years those who claim descent from Israeli Arab refugees who fled during the 1948 war have been fed, housed, and kept on multigenerational welfare dependency, for reasons that sound compassionate, but which are in fact cruel to the last degree.
Occasionally those who keep them there tell the truth in public, as the PA Mufti just did. Of all the refugee floods in the last fifty-nine years, no other group has been kept in prison for the sake of future revenge. Pakistan was founded by millions of refugees from British India in the same year of 1948. But their descendants are not called refugees: They are citizens of Pakistan. Germans fled Russia and Eastern Europe following World War II and were integrated into German, and nobody is a third generation refugee.
Somehow the Left and the Muslim world turn a blind eye to those who keep the Palestinians in prison, fired up with hatred against Israel, day in and out. Both the Left and the Islamic fascists want to keep the Palestinians' misery alive, as a casus belli, a constantly renewed reason for war against Israel. The UN social welfare bureaucracy of lives off the perpetuation of that deliberate misery. The world has determined they belong in prison.
What a sad state of affairs. If Islam were compassionate, the Mufti would let the children and grand-children of Arab refugees make their own decision about staying or leaving, like other people can. Then much of the hatred around the Israel-Palestinian issue would slowly yield to calm. Today, Pakistan and India may not love each other, but they are living side by side. That's all that's needed.
But will the Mufti let them go? Not a chance. Allah will know his own.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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