Susan

I don't see any muddied waters here - I believe murder is murder...however it may be redefined, relabelled, sanitised, or associated with irrelevant other causes such as feminism.  If someone has a living human inside their house, in their street, inside their womb, wherever - and decides to kill them...that's murder in my book.  It should be treated as such.

But I take a step back from that, and recognise the reality that you must reawaken hearts and minds first - to the intrinsic value of human life...to basic humanity 101...which seems to have been lost along the way by waves of people who have slowly chipped away at our collectiv conscience while they pushed their own causes.

You're right - not all human life is valued in the US equally.  The black man isn't as valuable as the white man.  The baby in the womb isn't as valued as the one inside.  The poor lady isn't as valued as the rich lady.  And so it goes.  It's the reality, and it's not right.

I kinda see where alley is coming from - the basic values of society are chipped away by the judiciary - a group of people often far removed from the reality of day-to-day living for many people.  Their decisions sometimes serve only to pander to the political correctness imperative of the past few decades, but then start as the thin edge of the wedge - later pushed time and again by individuals and groups with vested interests until we have the abhorrent situation of today.

Somehow a judge today who decided to protect the lives of unborn babies isn't a compassionate humanist...rather he/she is automatically portrayed by some as a form of monsterous woman-hater.  We need a judiciary who aren't so swayed by pressure groups, but are more influenced by the silent moral majority whose voices are often drowned out by the lunatic fringe - a group who ultimately attempt to reshape public opinion through their own form of censorship.

These questions always trouble me.

They STILL do even after reading your post, Cyba. You didn't respond to any of these key questions:

What punishment will you recommend for the person who commits this type of murder?

What legal remedy do you propose for the woman who solicited this murder?

What do you do to enforce a woman from not having the abortion she has solicited if you catch her in time? (imprisonment for the course of her pregnancy?)

Unwilling to spell it out? Or maybe it would be useful to tell me how it these situations are handled in countries with a superior moral development to that of the United States, where a black man is not as valuable as a white man. (Pretty archaic stereotyping of America in the 21st century)

Tell me how it is in Australia where all human life -- born or otherwise -- is of equal value. And tell me how these more humanistic countries and their legal systems handle that rare woman that has actually had an abortion. Or sought an abortion. Even in highly evolved societies without judicial classes, it must occasionally come to pass that a woman opts for a termination of pregnancy. Would you characterize the solicitation alone as "attempted murder" deserving of some sort of prison sentence? If murder is murder, attempted murder must also be attempted murder. That's a serious felony. 

So I just looked it up and discovered that abortion is legal in Australia -- some 80,000 abortions a year!!!  Australia would have a whole new industry -- prison construction -- when abortion is criminalized.

Alley, I'm not interested in what the author of that book has to say. I was interested in your views and what you were trying to convey in that sentence I extracted.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Susan - I don't recall saying anywhere that Australia is superior to the US on this issue.  I'm smelling a red herring...

Australians are up to their necks in the blood of abortions just as the US is.  Abortions are carried out on a large scale - and are a convenience akin to getting your teeth scaled at the dentist, or picking up a takeaway meal.  While we were fed the same extreme and ludicrous examples as you were "what if a teenage girl was raped - shouldn't she be allowed an abortion?"...and this example was the thin end of the wedge leading to the low liberal abuse of abortion procedures.

I thought I was clear in answering your questions...I'll be clearer still.

If someone is committing abortions - they should face jail.

The woman who solicited the killing - jail.

Soliciting the killing, yet it hasn't been conducted yet - jail.

I have no qualms locking up people who are trying to, or have already, killed people.  This is not a complicated or confusing matter.

No...she isn't deliberately killing anyone.

On a side note, it is interesting to note that as I mentioned earlier...when pro-abortionists are asked for an example, they usually think of the most extreme one, and try to justify all abortions of convenience based on that extreme example.

Equally, your example (even though in your usual inimitable tongue-in-cheek fashion booth) does sound like the arguments put forward by some abortion promoters.  They try and muddy the issue as though it's somehow intrinsically complicated and confusing...so people switch their brains off from the obvious truth - someone is getting killed here.

And that's what we're discussing...a simple truth, that when realised can't be stomached by most fair-minded people.

Red Herring Alert...

...not. Here are a few of your words that led me to believe you were maligning the US and A even if you didn't come right out and say Australia is superior.  You let it hinge around the US as if it were the prime example of baby murderers and their inablers.  Generally when a country is compared to Nazi Germany it can reasonably be inferred that the comparer is making a negative moral judgment. Of course if you were comparing the train schedule of the US and Nazi Germany, maybe it would be a red herring to suggest there was a moral quotient to the words.

Still not completely clear, Cybacat. You say jail for the gals and the abortionists? Here in the US and A jail is distinquished from prison in that jail is where you go for shorter term offenses such as driving while Paris. It may be a temporary housing situation for someone charged with murder and being held without bail during a trial such as slashing while OJ. But convicted murderers go to prison -- the "big house" -- where they are held up to life for first-degree murder. If you live in a state where the death penalty is on the books, you go to death row of a prison and sit around for a dozen years or more waiting for a team of lawyers and Paul Newman to arrange to have your entire sentence commuted for being a political prisoner as in Mumia abu Jamal.

But jail is still a little fuzzy in term of sentencing and I think you know that. Maybe you do have room for degrees of baby murder culpability? Young teen, panicked by her pregnancy, tries the knitting needle punctures her uterus, gets infections, lands in hospital, still pregnant but medical abortion becomes necessary to save her life. Manslaughter charges?

Let's go with a more common form of murder that used to be de riguer in the days of illegal abortion in a 1950s USA. Married woman has extramaritall affair, gets pregnant, solicits local doctor who has been known to "help out" other "women in trouble." Everyone kinda knows who he is and what he does. She is only a month pregnant but since her periods are regular, she is certain of her condition. She heads off to a secret rendevous with local doctor, has a swift abortion and heads home never telling her husband of what transpired. Mitigating factors: hardly any by your standards, though perhaps her defense attorney could bring forth an expert witness who claims a 4-week old unborn human baby does not have a fully developed brain stem and nervous system to suffer as much as the woman who murders her 40-week old unborn human baby. She has conspired, deceived, engaged another in her crime and then the two of them murdered. One might even argue she was "lying in wait" to sneak up on the unborn baby they murder. This sounds like first degree murder to me by your standards. Do we put her away for life?

Imagine the state of mind of the woman who had an abortion and then later has a miscarriage, as Booth suggests! Imagine the horror of being considered a serial killer now and possibly charged with a second crime. Oops! What am I saying? She'd have been doing hard time in an all woman's prison. How could she get pregnant a second time!? Hahaha. No doubt this prison would not be allowing any conjugal rights for these murderers, right?

Just asking. You never can tell when you may be called upon to cast a vote on these matters once Australia moves into a higher moral realm. Not much chance we'll be doing the same here in the USSA. But when you get together with your groups -- religious, political, or even just like-minded friends -- you must logically discuss the rosy future once morality is restored to the republic. I would think someone might bring it up.

Like removing the workout equipment from our country's prison system, charging these women and abortionists with murder would cause a massive counter-reaction. Once a particular form of murder has long existed as legal, the social engineer has to consider the reprecussions of change even if it is over the very long haul. I predict (though I'll never live to see it) that the day such a reaction is set in motion, it would give succor to animal rights activists and before you know it, they will be petitioning to legislate that cow murder, pig murder, chicken murder and fish murder be included within the same laws. Murder is murder. Heaven help us (haha) if the next generation starts to feel all squishy and emotional over the murder of rats, mice and termites.

I really would love to be a fly on the wall at one of your congregation's meetings to just get a glimpse of how such minds intend to engineer this one giant leap for mankind.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I don't think there are pro abortionists. Yes, there are those with strong opinions on a women's right to her own body. But that is a little different.

I have accompanied two women to have abortions. My limited obseravation is that the process is full of strong emotion, fear of loss, guilt, depression and nothing " pro" about it. It was a gut wrenching sad day for both the womem envolved.

At most there may have been some feeling of relief- but that is it. Nothing pro about it, These women were not murderers.

Would adoption be preferable-yes. Is it a repulsive option/ decision with a strong moral question attached? Yes. 

"Keep thy religion to thy self"  George Carlin

What religion are you talkin'bout? I see no fanatics here.

It never ceases to amaze me, how some people react to criticism towards institutions as if the detractors were attacking the pupil of their eyes. The pro-choice/pro-life are the two poles of a neverending debate, spiralling down into confusion. We, as the bearers of this present discussion must refrain endorsing such positions for the sake of a better understanding of the problems at hand. In other words: cooler heads will prevail.

But then, we must try and be open, for the sake of this discussion, to other people's views. Why is it when someone mentions the sanctity of life, he or she has to be labelled christian or religious for that matter. If caring about the lives of beings (and I'm not even saying human here) that can not voice themselves in court is religious then I am the biggest zealot.

It is not about whether or not the USA is the greatest country, morally superior and all. That could not be further from what is really the point and it doesn't help see more clearly. Why the chauvinistic approach? Up to recently weren't the States looked upon as an example to follow?

It is not characteristic of leaders to look down upon others and say: you are worst than Me! The US should be an example with their Constitution, so-called democracy and the like. This is what makes (made?) this country so great.

It saddens me to see that a lot of American citizens can't take a second to look at the state of their Constitution, thereby giving up on the whole, a society sapped from the inside by power-driven, money-hungry judges and lawyers that keep telling them all is taken care of.

You can't totally condone the practice of abortion -the way I see it, if it still interests you- but some basic steps should be taken so as the practice does not become too casual, hence "modest first step": the plan for this guy I was talking earlier about to save the eventual survivor of an abortion(!) Because it happened, and according to some witnesses, some unborn babies have been left to die, still breathing, in trashbins or on the floor without any one caring. I don't have the example at hand right now but I know that it all points to a re-definition of what human life is about and I fear the influence this could have upon other countries and then again, once you've started redefining what is proper human being, it could touch other segments, if the judicial class gets it their way. All this is still speculative of course, but to me it is very real. The only problem being that I am no law school student myself and English is not my first language. Hence the difficulty to convey all the importance of this issue.

The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.

1. Holiness of life or disposition; saintliness.
2. The quality or condition of being considered sacred; inviolability.
3. Something considered sacred.

1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
2. entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
3. pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to secular or profane): sacred music; sacred books.

I see. Thank you Booth.

Then if someone knows of a better expression for this concept, one totally devoid of any religious connotation, please let me know.

Ain't life itself sacred? Discuss.

The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.

Ummm, how come the men get off so easy?  (Nice double entendre, eh?)

All these pregnant, aborting women running around wouldn't be having all these abortions if there weren't all these men running around firing off sperm in every direction.  If a man irresponsibly impregnates a woman -- which pretty much has to include either not supplying and using contraceptives himself, or else not asking, not confirming, or not caring whether his partner has taken care of it already -- then he is as morally responsible for the creation of that fetus as she is.  I guess when she has it killed, he is guilty of, at least, pre-child neglect, so he should be in jail too.

Perhaps a penis registration program is in order.

Abortions suck. (Score again!) But there's plenty of sentient life that the average pro-lifer doesn't seem to care very much about; I hate to generalize, but we all know that for a large part of this political action movement, once that baby pops out they're on their own.  It would be nice if we could do something for every fetus that could conceivably (Zing!) survive on it's own -- but we can't without unacceptably infringing on the rights to privacy and bodily dominion of the already-borns.

There's a simple solution to the abortion question, though.  All human procreation is limited to state-run (or maybe church-run, to soothe those big-government opponents) reproduction centers.  Sex between fertile men and women outside of these centers is strictly prohibited.  (Of course, that'll turn everybody gay, but whatever.)  See?  Simple.

The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.

Ask in French Candianese.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.

Ben content qu'on puisse êt'd'accord su'quet'chose, JVS. I am glad we can agree on something. You from Qué. I gather?

I understand your point of view, Raymond. But personally, I am more depressed over the sensationalist approach to news, than in-depth analysis of a problem, for example. I feel exhilarated when I feel I got a piece of truth after all. Comprehension of how problems appear is a first step to betterment of these problems I think. But I feel it is compromised by the sheer amount of superfluous and often emotionally charged news content. The problem with infotainment is the "use once and dispose" approach that puts the news on the same level as toilet paper, to wipe our conscience from any remaining doubt in ourselves. I know I talk vaguely, but it is what I feel when faced with the never-ending stream of "information" that all the conjoined media spew out. I felt that forums can help the people gather information on their own accord and exchange values that are not necessarily well represented in the official media and to a certain extent, to other forms of media, with their own agendas. That said, I think depression is a normal state right now, if you take into account all the ugliness out there. I hope I don't put you down too much myself, because it really is not my aim. Sincerely. Now if you will excuse me, I gotta have a drink.

The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.

Susan

Again...I prefer to discuss the US because:

1. it's what most people here are more familiar with.

2. global social trends often tend to originate in the US (who control a large segment of global media)...before they filter to other countries.  Generally speaking, if I look at social trends and attitudes in the US today, many will be seen in Australia in a few years - and I'm talking both good and bad trends.

So if you're hung up on the discussion being about the US, please feel free to discuss the global push to make abortion more widely available, and more of a consumer's "free choice". 

As for the distinction between jail and prison - none was intended.  Use the word incarceration if it helps.  You kill people - you are incarcerated.  You help someone kill someone else - you're incarcerated.  Again, not complicated.

Raymond spoke of the guilt, shame, sense of loss etc.  These should be flashing sirens that what someone is doing is intrinsically wrong.  They can do 2 things afterwards - they can recognise the reality of what they've done, regret it, and never do it again.  OR, they can harden themselves to the idea that what they did was right - ignore their conscience, dress up what they did as some vague/abstract "rights" issue, and eventually they should be able to desensitise their conscience to the degree that they can actually live with themselves.

Either way, it's a dirty, shameful business - not something that should be glorified, and it's certainly NOBODY'S "right" to take the life of someone else - no matter how much one might inflate their own importance on this Earth.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Alleyghost, I agree with your quote:

"... the sensationalist approach to news, than in-depth analysis of a problem, for example. I feel exhilarated when I feel I got a piece of truth after all. Comprehension of how problems appear is a first step to betterment of these problems I think. But I feel it is compromised by the sheer amount of superfluous and often emotionally charged news content. The problem with infotainment is the "use once and dispose" approach that puts the news on the same level as toilet paper, to wipe our conscience from any remaining doubt in ourselves. I know I talk vaguely, but it is what I feel when faced with the never-ending stream of "information" that all the conjoined media spew out. I felt that forums can help the people gather information on their own accord and exchange values that are not necessarily well represented in the official media and to a certain extent, to other forms of media, with their own agendas."

Sorry Susan this should have been moved but, I felt the continuity would be lost at this particular point.

Alleyghost- I am thrown off track just a tad by the toilet paper illustration, but otherwise I hear you.

No worries, Raymond.  I was just trying to start a new thread specifically on abortion. 

What is an atomic dog anyway?  I lost track of this discussion's original intent.   

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin