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1. Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:06 AM
JVSCant Is the Vice-presidency really a separate branch of government?


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Deadeye seems to believe it, or at least he acts like he does.

For the last four years, Vice President Dick Cheney has made the controversial claim that his office is not fully part of the Bush administration in order to exempt it from a presidential order regulating federal agencies' handling of classified national security information, officials said Thursday.

Cheney has held that his office is not fully part of the executive branch of government despite the continued objections of the National Archives, which says his office's failure to demonstrate that it has proper security safeguards in place could jeopardize the government's top secrets.

Well, it'll certainly give Obama a lot more leeway than he would have had, say, four-and-a-half years ago, assuming he doesn't take the high road and renounce it.  I'm hoping for a "low-road" performance on this one; if the Democrats treat being in government with half of the self-serving disdain for history and the public-at-large that this administration has, the coastal regions will be flooded with unprecedented levels of Republican bluster about how eeeeevil they are.

I really, honestly want to know how people who have supported this administration from the start feel about this kind of stuff.  Because I believe it all matters, and I get the impression that I'm in the minority around here on things like this, so I'd be interested to hear some explanations about where my thought process went wrong... 


 
2. Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:20 AM
nuart RE: Is the Vice-presidency really a separate branch of government?


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I gotta tell you, Jamie, that your post was a little clunky with arcana making it difficult for me to sort through. At first I thought "Deadeye" was that new late night Fox show. Then I remembered that's "Redeye."

I still don't know what you mean about Obama though I read that part three times???

And as far as the "big news bulletin" du jour (as we say in Quebecois), I haven't really been following it at all. Why? Because after 7 years of the press reviling the Bush administration with increasing vitriol, I understand the arc of the story. Words like molehills, mountains, tempests and teapots come to mind. Seven years after, you see only tempests and mountains while mostly, I see teapots and molehills.

So if there is something huge and sinister about Cheney "hiding" "classified" material in regards to godknowswhat this time, I would expect the Democrats to inflate it. I would expect the Republicans to downplay it. Myself, I'm sick of the game. The proportionality (a popular word last summer...) has been lost and it will require several decades for cooler minds to prevail in sorting out this era. I'm leery of the superlatives. I am not interested enough to deeply delve into this one. It's a distraction from matters I rank higher on my personal Things to Worry About scale.

Notice how I don't bring up Clinton's National Security Advisor, Sandy Berger's having concealed and then stolen documents (originals not duplicated) from the National Archives? Notice that I don't do so because I'm not big on tit for tat, being that each politically motivated event is likely fraught with multiple layers of intentional mis- and dis-information that. It isn't even worthy of an "I know you are but what am I" retort. I still believe with the intense level of public scrutiny on any American in higher office, the misdeeds so often alleged are generally of a lesser degree than each side's enemies would have us believe. Both sides.

If any of your question has to do with Valerie Plame or Scooter Libby, I will direct you to this excellent Salon article with comments following. Maybe it will fill in some blanks. If it doesn't, well, the article is worth a read anyway.

It's just awfully hard to see through the thickets, isn't it? And the more so today than ever. Thank you, Google.

Susan

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
3. Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:08 PM
JVSCant RE: Is the Vice-presidency really a separate branch of government?


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My point was that I expect Obama to be the next vice-president of the United States, and that therefore every special privilege that Cheney manufactures for himself will have a precedent in a Clinton/Obama White House. My concern is that the Democrats will reject such an argument when it comes to their own mandate, to show how allegedly responsible and forthright they are.

And I'm in favor of any bargain that would calculate a ratio between the number of documents Berger shoved down his pants and the number of documents that would be affected by Cheney's end-run around the accountability of his office, and dealing out the punishment according to the same ratio...

I'm also in favor of applying the same argument to Cheney as has been applied to every American since the government decided that they're allowed to wiretap anyone they want, without oversight -- what's the worry, if there's nothing to hide?


 
4. Monday, June 25, 2007 11:33 AM
nuart RE: Is the Vice-presidency really a separate branch of government?


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What's the worry if there's nothing to hide? There's always something to "hide." Cheney might choose a different word thereby changing the implication that he's "hiding" something. Or how about the fact that in a time of war there are matters within the executive branch, the judicial, and the legislative that are done in closed quarters with minimal exposure for reasons of national security? The balance has been long debated and will continue to be.

Oh, I see what you're driving at. Obama as VP, huh? I'm taking all wagers against a Hillary candidacy so if you mean VP to her P, I'd love to handshake your bet as well, Jamie! I know it is the CW that HRC will be the Democratic candidate. I disagree. Even the LA Times had a recent article stating that although Democrat voters really really really want a Dem in the White House, when it comes to Hillary a great chunk of them say "...but not her."

Since registered Democrats are only 30-some percent of the registered voters, Republicans about the same and the remaining 20+% are Independents, that makes her win even less likely. Which says to me, the Democratic party may not be so eager for a Hillary candidacy after all. They want a winner. They really really really want to ride the 2006 Congressional win and carry it over into the White House. To win the presidency, it is necessary to have crossover votes. Crossover voting requires a candidate whose appeal can cross party lines. Hillary polarizes even within her own party. I cannot imagine the Republican who would vote for her though I can imagine Republicans who would vote for other lesser known quantities.

Furthermore, people are so fed up with the psychological concept of dynasty after three "reigns" of Bushes, I just do not believe the zeitgeist of our era will allow for a Clinton dynasty.

Obama as VP though, huh? Well, maybe if Hillary isn't the presidential candidate.  I don't think there's any chance of that match. But to whom? John Edwards? Joe Biden? Dennis Kuchinich? If Obama eventually pulls out of the race, I think he'll do it at the first sign of a bad showing in early primaries and then not entertain the Vice Presidency. BUT... since great big California is having a February primary, that could be good for Obama.
 
BUT... if Mayor Bloomberg enters the race as an Independent, we could find ourselves in a Ross Perot-Ralph Nader Independent splitsville race where all bets are off. There would then likely be some intense behind the scenes arm twisting to convince him not to be a spoiler. UNLESS he is able to get himself on the ballot in MOST of the states, a difficult task for a third party candidate.

We'll see.

Meanwhile, Cheney. I listened to the morning shows' blather today with the purpose of discovering if there was a there there. Thought I'd check and see what's got you so concerned about Cheney, Jamie. Long ago it came to me that faces on a television screen were not necessarily more informed than I, the television viewer. Not necessarily. I imagine the news teams assembling their versions of any story. This story. I understand from their perspective and disagree with their characterizations.  But I sometimes imagine chatting with a group of these news assemblers at a cocktail party (as I have done) and sipping my glass of wine while thinking this guy/gal is way off the mark. Just because their face or their words are widely disseminated doesn't give me any greater level of confidence in their veracity.  The same could be said that you as a Canadian observer of American politics do not feel any more convinced in the truth as spoken by Bush-Cheney, the leaders of the free world. Stalemate. Gridlock.

As for Berger's secreting concealed documents from the National Archives while a retired NSA versus the particular documents that the current Vice President, Cheney and his advisors have determined do not qualify as documents necessary for release to the National Archives, I don't see them as tit for tat and was not suggesting I do. I was only making a joke about how I wouldn't take two disparate document stories and go neener-neener-neener Dem-Rep-Dem-Rep. Each is a separate case and should be evaluated as such. Personally I don't see much future in our system with hovering partisan monitors willing to investigate, indict and dole out punishments to every public servant. That strikes me as far more dangerous than any of the charges of stealth, secrecy, and sinister scenarios.

Did you notice how my carefully selected words conveyed quite a different meaning than your subject line? Imagine a US press corps who mostly agreed with my take? I'm just saying...

Susan

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 

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