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> Three Books Against religion !
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| 1. Thursday, July 5, 2007 11:54 AM |
| Raymond |
Three Books Against religion ! |
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Posted: June 10, 2007, 7:16 pm Writings against God and religion have been around as long as God and religion have been around. But every so often an epidemic of the genre breaks out and a spate of such writings achieves the status of notoriety (which is what their authors had been aiming for). This has now happened to three books published in the last three years: Sam Harris’s “The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and The Future of Reason” (2004, 2005), Richard Dawkins’s “The God Delusion” (2006) and Christopher Hitchens’s [ Note by Raymond:My favorite atheist and a real pisser ] “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything” (2007). (Were this the kind of analysis performed in Lancelot Andrewes’s sermons, I would note the fact that the names of all three authors end in “s,” signifying, no doubt, the presence of Sin and Satan.) The books differ in tone and emphasis. Harris is sounding a warning against the threat of Islam and inveighing against what he regards as the false hope of religious moderation. “We are at war with Islam,” he announces, and he decides that, given the nature of the enemy — religious zealots informed by an absolute and terrifying faith — torture “in certain circumstances would seem to be not only permissible but necessary.” (This from someone who denounces religion because it is used as a rationalization for inhumane deeds!) Dawkins doesn’t single out Islam for particular negative intention; in his eyes all religions are equally bad and equally absurd; and he wonders why obviously intelligent men and women can’t see through the nonsense, especially given that so many of the questions religion can’t answer have clearly been answered by the theory of natural selection. Hitchens, the wittiest and most literate of the three, is a world traveler and will often recount the devastating arguments against religion he has made while lunching with a very important person in Belgrade, Bombay, Belfast, Beirut, the Vatican, North Korea and Washington, D.C., among other places. Still, as distinct as the personalities and styles of the three are, they share a set of core arguments. (And they toss little bouquets to one another along the way.) First, religion is man-made: its sacred texts, rather than being the word of God, are the “manufactured” words of fallible men. Moreover (and this is the second shared point), these words have been cobbled together from miscellaneous sources, all of which are far removed in time from the events they purport to describe. Third, it is in the name of these corrupt, garbled and contradictory texts, that men (and occasionally women) have been moved to do terrible things. Fourth (and this is the big one), the commission of these horrible acts – “trafficking in humans…ethnic cleansing… slavery… indiscriminate massacre” (Hitchens) – is justified not by arguments, reasons or evidence, but by something called faith, which is scornfully dismissed by all three: “Faith is what credulity becomes when it finally achieves escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse – constraints like reasonableness., internal coherence, civility and candor” ( Harris). “Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument” (Dawkins). “If one must have faith in order to believe something,…then the likelihood of that something having any truth or value is considerably diminished” (Hitchens). It’s time for an example of the kind of thinking Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens find so contemptible. At the beginning of Bunyans’s “The Pilgrim’s Progress,” the hero, named simply Christian, becomes aware of a great burden on his back (it is Original Sin) and is desperate to rid himself of it. Distraught , he consults one named Evangelist who tells him to flee “the wrath to come.” Flee where, he asks. Pointing in the direction of a vast expanse, Evangelist says, Do you see the Wicket Gate out there? No, replies Christian. Do you see a shining light? Christian is not sure (“I think I do”), but at Evangelist’s urging he begins to run in the direction of the light he cannot quite make out. Then comes the chilling part: “Now he had not run far from his own door, but his Wife and Children perceiving it, began to cry after him to return, but the man put his fingers in his ears and ran on, crying Life! Life! Eternal Life.” So what we have here is a man abandoning his responsibilities and resisting the entreaties of those who love and depend on him, and all for something of whose existence he is not even sure. And, even worse, he does this in the absence of reason, argument or evidence. (Mark Twain’s Huck Finn said of “The Pilgrim’s Progress”: “About a man who left his family; it didn’t say why.”) At this point, Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens would exclaim, See what these nuts do at the behest of religion – child abandonment justified by nothing more substantial than some crazy inner impulse; remember Abraham was going to kill his son because he thought the blood-thirsty god he had invented wanted him to. I have imagined this criticism coming from outside the narrative, but in fact it is right there on the inside, in the cries of Christian’s wife and children, in the reactions of his friends (“they thought that some frenzy distemper had gotten into his head”), and in the analysis they give of his irrational actions: he, they conclude, is one of those who “are wiser in their own eyes than seven men that can render a Reason.” What this shows is that the objections Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens make to religious thinking are themselves part of religious thinking; rather than being swept under the rug of a seamless discourse, they are the very motor of that discourse, impelling the conflicted questioning of theologians and poets (not to mention the Jesus who cried, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” and every verse of the Book of Job). Dawkins asks why Adam and Eve (and all their descendants) were punished so harshly, given that their “sin” – eating an apple after having been told not to – “seems mild enough to merit a mere reprimand.” (We might now call this the Scooter Libby defense.) This is a good question, but it is one that has been asked and answered many times, not by atheists and scoffers, but by believers trying to work though the dilemmas presented by their faith. An answer often given is that it is important that the forbidden act be a trivial one; for were it an act that was on its face either moral or immoral, committing it or declining to commit it would follow from the powers of judgment men naturally have. It is because there is no reason, in nature, either to eat the apple or to refrain from eating it, that the prohibition can serve as a test of faith; otherwise, as John Webster explained (“The Examination of Academies,” 1654), faith would rest “upon the rotten basis of humane authority.” Hitchens asks, “Why, if God is the creator of all things, were we supposed to ‘praise’ him incessantly for doing what comes naturally?” The usual answer (again given by theologians and religious poets) is, what else could we do in the face of his omnipotence and omnipresence? God is the epitome of the rich relative who has everything; thanks and gratitude are the only coin we can tender. Or can we? The poet George Herbert reasons (and that is the word) that if it is only by the infusion of grace that we do anything admirable, praising God is an action for which we cannot take credit; for even that act is His. “Who hath praise enough?”, he asks, but then immediately (in the same line) corrects himself: “Nay, who hath any?” (“Providence”) Even something so minimal as praising God becomes a sin if it is done pridefully . Where does that leave us, Herbert implicitly asks, a question more severe and daunting than any posed by the three atheists. Harris wonders why the Holocaust didn’t “lead most Jews to doubt the existence of an omnipotent and benevolent God?” Behind this question is another one: where does evil come from, and if God is all-powerful and has created everything, doesn’t it come from Him? Again there is a standard answer (which does not mean that it is a satisfying one): evil proceeds from the will of a creature who was created just and upright, but who corrupted himself by an act of disobedience that forever infects his actions and the actions of his descendants. It is what Milton’s God calls “man’s polluting sin” (“Paradise Lost,” X, 631) that produces generations of evil, including the generation of the Holocaust, for, as Milton’s Adam himself acknowledges, “from me what can proceed, / But all corrupt, both mind and will deprav’d?” (825). But, Harris , Dawkins and Hitchens object, if God is so powerful, why didn’t he just step in and prevent evil before it occurred? Not judge slavery, but nip it in the bud; not cure a blind man, but cure blindness; not send his only begotten son to redeem a sinful mankind, but create a mankind that could not sin? And besides, if God had really wanted man to refrain from evil acts and thoughts, like the act and thought of disobedience, then, says Hitchens, “he should have taken more care to invent a different species.” But if he had done that, if Adam and Eve were faithful because they were programmed to be so, then the act of obedience (had they performed it) would not in any sense have been theirs. For what they do or don’t do to be meaningful, it must be free: “Freely they stood who stood and fell who fell / Not free, what proof could they have given sincere/ Of true allegiance?” (“Paradise Lost,” III, 102-104). I have drawn these arguments out of my small store of theological knowledge not because they are conclusive (although they may be to some), but because they are there – in the very texts and traditions Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens dismiss as naive, simpleminded and ignorant. Suppose, says Hitchens, you were a religious believer; you would then be persuaded that a benign and all-powerful creator supervises everything, and that “if you obey the rules and commandments that he has lovingly prescribed, you will qualify for an eternity of bliss and repose.” I know of no religious framework that offers such a complacent picture of the life of faith, a life that is always presented as a minefield of the difficulties, obstacles and temptations that must be negotiated by a limited creature in his or her efforts to become aligned (and allied) with the Infinite. St Paul’s lament can stand in for many: “The good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, I do…. Who shall deliver me?” (Romans, 7: 19,24). The anguish of this question and the incredibly nuanced and elegant writings of those who have tried to answer it are what the three atheists miss; and it is by missing so much that they are able to produce such a jolly debunking of a way of thinking they do not begin to understand. But I have not yet considered their prime objection to religious faith: that it leaves argument, reason and evidence in the dust, and proceeds directly to the commission of wholly unjustified (and often horrific) acts. It is that issue that I will take up in the next column. http://screwsubwalls.blogspot.com/2007/06/think-again-stanley-fish.html
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| 2. Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:32 PM |
| 12rainbow |
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I wrote a paper last term about how, whether he wanted to or not, Milton discredits faith in the biblical god.
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| 3. Thursday, July 5, 2007 3:25 PM |
| one suave folk |
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Harris has a NEWER book out (I forget the title). There was an op-ed piece recently by a former college prof, who didn't read the book (Chris Hitchens's. Ooops), or see the author read & field questions. He did a "book review" based solely on the title!!! Wonder if he'd've let his students get away with that.... One of the best, easiest to read questioning of faith books I've read is In God We Trust: But Which One? I forget the author's name, but her dad was a church organist.
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| 4. Thursday, July 5, 2007 4:06 PM |
| herofix |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
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We're all atheists about everyone else's religious beliefs. Heard Daniel Dennet say that t' other day. It's a good slogan and I'm using it. *slinks off*
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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| 5. Thursday, July 5, 2007 7:25 PM |
| one suave folk |
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"Monotheism is a gift from the gods." Emo Phillips
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| 6. Friday, July 6, 2007 6:09 AM |
| Booth |
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Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we learn how to believe.
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| 7. Friday, July 6, 2007 4:04 PM |
| The Staring Man |
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Time to make a run to Barnes and Noble!!!!! "Keep thy religion to thy self" George Carlin
"The only thing that Columbus discovered was that he was lost"
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| 8. Friday, July 6, 2007 4:16 PM |
| Raymond |
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Christopher Hitchens is full of humor, logic, history and a certain aloof air that works because it is real, not a put on. Yeah, That George Carlin quote is a classic. Good to hear it again Staring Man. 
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| 9. Monday, July 16, 2007 10:30 PM |
| alleyghost |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
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Enjoying yourselves, pals?
The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.
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| 10. Tuesday, July 17, 2007 1:24 PM |
| Raymond |
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Thanks to folks like Staring Man, One Suave Folk,Booth,and Nuart among many others here, yes. Too bad you are evidently against people having fun and joking. As a sidelight humor can 1) help to make points and 2)make posters ( who may have different ideas on things ) able to discuss in a relaxed non hostile environment. You should try it some time. On second thought, nevermind.
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| 11. Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:39 PM |
| nuart |
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Thanks, Raymond, I too am having fun. Like Martin Short once told Dennis Miller when explaining why he was always so upbeat and happy: "The grim is gonna come sooner or later and I don't want to give it a nanosecond's extra time in my life." I'm paraphrasing. Here's the Wall Street Journal's article on this new book trend. My thought is that the bash Bush books have pretty much run their course so what better target than religion. Well more specifically, Christianity. It's got more staying power anyway. Bet Gavin will enjoy this one. A little wordy but I like words! Hope you all do as well.
Susan The New New Atheism By PETER BERKOWITZ July 16, 2007; Page A13 "There is nothing new under the sun," proclaims the Book of Ecclesiastes. The rise of the new new atheism confirms this ancient biblical wisdom. Of course the famous words of Ecclesiastes should not be taken in a slavishly literal sense, a technique that is all-too-common among those who think they can refute belief in God by showing that the Bible abounds in demonstrably false and self-contradictory statements. But one stunning new development under the sun is that promulgating atheism has become a lucrative business. According to a recent article in The Wall Street Journal, in less than 12 months atheism's newest champions have sold close to a million books. Some 500,000 hardcover copies are in print of Richard Dawkins's "The God Delusion" (2006); 296,000 copies of Christopher Hitchens's "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" (2007); 185,000 copies of Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation" (2006); 64,100 copies of Daniel C. Dennett's "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon"; and 60,000 copies of Victor J. Stenger's "God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows that God Does not Exist" (2007). Profitability is not the only feature distinguishing today's fashionable disbelief from the varieties of atheism that have arisen over the millennia. Unlike the classical atheism of Epicurus and Lucretius, which rejected belief in the gods in the name of pleasure and tranquility, the new new atheism rejects God in the name of natural science, individual freedom and human equality. Unlike the Enlightenment atheism of the 18th century, which arose in a still predominantly religious society and which frequently went to some effort to disguise or mute its disbelief, the new new atheism proclaims its hatred of God and organized religion loudly and proudly from the rooftops. And unlike the anti-modern atheism of Nietzsche and Heidegger, which regarded the death of God as a catastrophe for the human spirit, the new new atheism sees the loss of religious faith in the modern world as an unqualified good, lamenting only the perverse and widespread resistance to shedding once and for all the hopelessly backward belief in a divine presence in history. So Messrs. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and the rest have some fair claim to novelty. But not where it really counts. They contend that from the vantage point of the 21st century, and thanks to the moral progress of mankind and the achievements of natural science, we can now know, with finality and certainty, that God does not exist and organized religion is a fraud. The disproportion between the bluster and bravado of their rhetoric and the limitations of their major arguments is astonishing. The case for the new new atheism has been restated most recently and most forcefully and wittily in "God Is Not Great" by my friend Mr. Hitchens. It must be said that Mr. Hitchens is simply incapable of uttering or writing a dull sentence. And it should be added that only a very daring or very foolish person would throw down the gauntlet on an issue so close to Mr. Hitchens's heart. But his arguments do not come close to disproving God's existence or demonstrating that religion is irredeemably evil. Consider Mr. Hitchens's contention, elaborated at length and with gusto, that religion by its very nature compels people to behave cruelly and violently. According to Mr. Hitchens, religion educates children to hate nonbelievers, encourages grown-ups to engage in slaughter and conquest for God's greater glory, and obliges the "true believer" to restlessly circle the globe subduing peoples and nations until "the whole world bows the knee." The bloody history of oppression and war undertaken on behalf of the gods and God, from time immemorial, makes all decent people shudder. But Mr. Hitchens knows perfectly well that human beings are not born in Rousseauian purity and freedom, and then made savage by the imposition of the chains of religion. Therefore, he should have asked whether and to what extent the varieties of religion have inflamed or rather disciplined humanity's powerful built-in propensity, attested to by social science, to fight and kill. But he didn't. Such a question opens intriguing possibilities. Mr. Hitchens mocks the crudity of the biblical principle known in Latin as lex talionis, or an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot." But suppose, as Jewish teaching suggests, that the biblical principle put an end to the practice of taking a leg for a foot and a life for an eye, and in its place established a principle that, though differently interpreted today, remains a cornerstone of our notion of justice -- that the punishment should fit the crime. Similarly, Mr. Hitchens heaps scorn on the biblical story of Abraham's binding of Isaac, in which, at the last moment, an angel stays Abraham's hand. What kind of barbarian, wonders Mr. Hitchens, would prepare to sacrifice his son at God's command, and what kind of morally stunted individuals would honor such a man, or the deity who made the demand? Yet Mr. Hitchens's categorical claim that religion poisons everything is undermined by the common interpretation according to which God's testing of Abraham taught, among other things, that the then widespread practice of child-sacrifice was contrary to God's will, and must be put to an end forever. At the same time, Mr. Hitchens has next to nothing to say about the historical role of religion, particularly Christianity, particularly in America, in nourishing the soil in which our widely and deeply shared beliefs in liberty, democracy and equality took root and grew strong -- a subject dealt with perceptively by Yale professor of computer science David Gelernter in his recent book "Americanism: The Fourth Great Western Religion." Mr. Hitchens anticipates that critics will point to those crimes against humanity, dwarfing religion's sins, committed in the name of secular ideas in the 20th century. He attempts to deflect the challenge with sophistry: "It is interesting to find that people of faith now seek defensively to say that they are no worse than fascists or Nazis or Stalinists." But who is behaving defensively here? Mr. Hitchens is the one who unequivocally insists that religion poisons everything, and it is Mr. Hitchens who holds out the utopian hope that eradicating it will subdue humanity's evil propensities and resolve its enduring questions. Nor is his case bolstered by his observation that 20th-century totalitarianism took on many features of religion. That only brings home the need to distinguish, as Mr. Hitchens resolutely refuses to do, between authentic and corrupt, and just and unjust, religious teachings. And it begs the question of why the 20th-century embrace of secularism unleashed human depravity of unprecedented proportions. Even were he to concede that religion doesn't poison everything, Mr. Hitchens presumably still would cling to his claim that the findings of modern science prove that God does not exist. Thanks to the knowledge we have attained of how the natural order actually operates -- in particular the discoveries of Charles Darwin and modern physics -- he concludes that "all attempts to reconcile faith with science and reason are consigned to failure and ridicule." This conclusion, however, contradicts that of the late Stephen Jay Gould, to whom Mr. Hitchens himself refers as a "great paleontologist" and whose authority he invokes in support of the proposition that randomness is an essential feature of evolution. Noting surveys that showed that half of all scientists are religious, Gould commented amusingly that "Either half my colleagues are enormously stupid, or else the science of Darwinism is fully compatible with conventional religious beliefs -- and equally compatible with atheism." These lines are quoted in "The Dawkins Delusion," by Alistair McGrath, who holds a doctorate in molecular biology from Oxford, where he is now professor of historical theology, and by his wife Joanna Collicutt McGrath, who studied experimental psychology at Oxford and is currently a lecturer in the psychology of religion at the University of London. According to the McGraths, Gould was correct to think that both conventional religious belief and atheism are compatible with natural science, in part because "there are many questions that by their very nature must be recognized to lie beyond the legitimate scope of the scientific method." Such questions -- toward which the mind naturally wanders, though it is susceptible to ambush by the crude scientism of which Mr. Hitchens occasionally avails himself -- include: Where did the universe come from, and is it governed by purpose? As for his claim that the Bible abounds in falsehood and contradiction, Mr. Hitchens makes great sport with an old straw man. Yes, traditions teach that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, yet the Pentateuch refers to Moses in the third person and tells the story of his death. Yes, Matthew and Luke disagree on the Virgin Birth and the genealogy of Jesus. And so on. The literalness of Mr. Hitchens's readings would put many a fundamentalist to shame. However, isolating the supposed religious significance of the Bible from the communities and interpretive traditions that have elaborated its teaching is invalid. It is like deriving the meaning of the Constitution today by reading its provisions without reference to "The Federalist Papers," which provides authoritative commentary on its principles; without reference to the two centuries of cases and controversies through which the Supreme Court has sought to construe its meaning; and without reference to the two centuries of experience through which the American people have sought to put the institutional framework it outlines into practice. In making his case that reason must regard faith as an enemy to be wiped out, Mr. Hitchens declares Socrates's teaching that knowledge consists in knowing one's ignorance to be "the definition of an educated person." And yet Mr. Hitchens shows no awareness that his atheism, far from resulting from skeptical inquiry, is the rigidly dogmatic premise from which his inquiries proceed, and that it colors all his observations and determines his conclusions. Mr. Hitchens is by far the most erudite and entertaining of the new new atheists. But his errors and his excesses are shared by the whole lot. And these errors and excesses have pernicious political consequences, amplifying invidious distinctions among fellow citizens and obscuring crucial differences among believers world wide. Playing into the anger and enmities that debase our politics today, the new new atheism blurs the deep commitment to the freedom and equality of individuals that binds atheists and believers in America. At the same time, by treating all religion as one great evil pathology, today's bestselling atheists suppress crucial distinctions between the forms of faith embraced by the vast majority of American citizens and the militant Islam that at this very moment is pledged to America's destruction. Like philosophy, religion, rightly understood, has a beginning in wonder. The most wonderful of creatures are human beings themselves. Of all the Bible's sublime and sustaining teachings, none is more so than the teaching that explains that humanity is set apart because all human beings -- woman as well as man the Bible emphasizes -- are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). That a teaching is sublime and sustaining does not make it true. But that, along with its service in laying the moral foundations in the Western world for the belief in the dignity of all men and women -- a belief that our new new atheists take for granted and for which they provide no compelling alternative foundation -- is reason enough to give the variety of religions a fair hearing. And it is reason enough to respect believers as decent human beings struggling to make sense of a mysterious world. Mr. Berkowitz, a senior fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution, teaches at George Mason University School of Law.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 12. Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:42 AM |
| Booth |
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QUOTE:And it begs the question of why the 20th-century embrace of secularism unleashed human depravity of unprecedented proportions.
| Because without the loving teachings of Jesus, man reverted to the nature given to him by his Old Testament creator? The one that had no problem destroying most living things on earth.
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| 13. Wednesday, July 18, 2007 8:17 AM |
| nuart |
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Torah basher.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 14. Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:14 AM |
| Booth |
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Maybe I was bashing the Pentateuch?
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| 15. Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:19 AM |
| nuart |
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Whaddever. The important thing is you offer a fundamentalist one-liner interpretation devoid of context. Sort of Carlinesque? Oh well, it is the mode du jour. I'm going to lunch. Love you just the same, you atheist funny guy! Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 16. Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:31 AM |
| Booth |
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| QUOTE: Whaddever. The important thing is you offer a fundamentalist one-liner interpretation devoid of context. Sort of Carlinesque? | If Carlinesque means glib, then yes.
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| 17. Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:06 PM |
| 12rainbow |
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QUOTE:QUOTE:And it begs the question of why the 20th-century embrace of secularism unleashed human depravity of unprecedented proportions.
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History would say that man has always been depraved. And prone to secularism.
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| 18. Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:02 PM |
| alleyghost |
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I wish History could help us, I really do. I mean if it points us something we could not see before, could we make something out of it? That is my question.
The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.
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| 19. Friday, July 20, 2007 11:23 AM |
| Kevin6002 |
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Kim Clement: "THE SPIRIT OF SAMSON WILL RISE UPON PHYSICAL BODIES, AND GOD SAID THERE WILL BE SO MANY WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL BREAKTHROUGHS"
July 8, 2007--Pasadena, CA I want the same, same sound of the Day of Pentecost!
I can hear the same, same sound, I can feel the same, same sound...that's the sound that God wants this Nation and other nations to be possessed with, not the sound of religion, not necessarily the sound of tradition; not the sound of repetition, but the same, same sound that loosened my apostles and 120 people – took them from being insignificant and made them giants, took them from silence and made them a sound. This is the sound that I am releasing. "Where is The God of Elijah?" by Kim Clement $15.00 Music CD This prophetic worship CD is sure to become one of your favorites. Once again, Kim Clement takes us on a journey of (more) 1-866-354-5245 (USA) -OR- 1-541-926-3250 (Outside the USA) |
The same, same sound as the Day of Pentecost: wild – in God's control where men have no control and are subject only to the dictations of God. This is the sound that God shall bring; for a Nation is crying out and nations are crying out, and yes, even the Middle East is crying out for the sound.
God said, "You wonder what that sound is – in that day in the garden, that sound they were familiar with. Daily I communed with Adam and Eve, they heard that sound. It was distinguishable, it could be understood, it was comprehensible. But the day that they fed their eyes of the knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened and their perception was closed. And that sound came into the garden, but this time it caused them to run with fear. No longer was the sound a familiar sound, it was a horrific sound. Men ran from that sound. The children of Israel ran when the sound was in the mountain, and said to Moses, 'You go and hear and interpret what that sound is, the sound of His voice.' They ran from that sound throughout the nations and the times."
"...And God said there will be such unusual miracles like the earth has never seen: in medical science, in technology, athletes will break records as has never happened."
"Secrets of the Prophetic" by Kim Clement $13.99 book Author Kim Clement shares from his many years of experience in demonstrating prophetic (more) 1-866-354-5245 (USA) -OR- 1-541-926-3250 (Outside the USA) | And God said, "I brought mankind together through the Word that came from Heaven: My Son. And upon going to the Cross and doing that one thing that I told Him, that one act of obedience brought mankind into a place of comprehending a sound when they were in one accord in one place, the sound that came from Heaven was a sound that they could not distinguish but they knew it was right. Suddenly flames came upon them, they were all filled with the Spirit and began to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Prepare yourself for what is about to happen. For God said, "I will shake churches, I will shake businesses, I will shake ministries, I will shake – everything that can be shaken will be shaken. And out of it, out of it will emerge a new sound, a fresh sound that will draw in the wicked, that will draw in those that are crying for help." And God said, "There will be such unusual miracles like the earth has never seen: in medical science, in technology, athletes will break records as has never happened. The spirit of Samson will rise upon physical bodies," and God said, "There will be so many wonderful, wonderful breakthroughs. For a unique generation shall bring a unique manifestation and unique miracles." God said, "Prepare yourself for you will be saying these same words, 'this has never ever happened before!'"
Kim Clement Prophetic Image Expressions www.kimclement.com
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| 20. Friday, July 20, 2007 11:56 AM |
| alleyghost |
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What will God do about FEMA camps and REX 84?
The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.
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| 21. Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:42 AM |
| one suave folk |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
Member Since 12/21/2005 Posts:5862
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Recommended by Sam Harris, an excellent website: www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com. GO!!!
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| 22. Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:18 PM |
| Kevin6002 |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
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Why do you think God hates amputees? It has more to do with man than God. The reason why we have not seen amputees growing there arms and legs back is because people are just relearning how to tap into the Glory realm of God. Once people learn more and more about how to tap into the Glory realm you will see amputees growing their arms and legs back. People walking on water and through walls etc... But the question I want to ask you is how do you feel about amputees?
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| 23. Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:21 PM |
| Kevin6002 |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
Member Since 7/23/2006 Posts:802
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Instant Weight Loss miracles in our Las Vegas |
One lady instantly lost 4 inches around her waist.

Instant Weight Loss miracles in our Las Vegas Meetings summer 2004. The first night 20 people demonstrated up to 5 dress sizes of weight loss. We have seen people lose up to 70lbs in one meeting. The instant weight loss has been occuring for about 3 years now in our Glory Meetings.
 
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| 24. Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:39 PM |
| Kevin6002 |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
Member Since 7/23/2006 Posts:802
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| Hbr 11:37 | | They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; |
| Hbr 11:38 | | (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth. |
| Hbr 11:39 | | And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: |
| Hbr 11:40 | | God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect |
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| 25. Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:39 PM |
| Kevin6002 |
RE: Three Books Against religion ! |
Member Since 7/23/2006 Posts:802
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| Hbr 11:37 | | They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; |
| Hbr 11:38 | | (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth. |
| Hbr 11:39 | | And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: |
| Hbr 11:40 | | God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect |
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