Abortion.  Thought it might deserve its own thread even though it is so highly controversial.  It's possible to discuss calmly though, isn't it? 

Cyba mentions that pro-abortion folks tend to bring up extremes when stating their cases for preserving legalized abortion.  Here's an interesting example from Ireland.  I'll concede it's the rarity but it is the outer limits of cases upon which most people can find agreement.  In the "most people" category, however, we are not likely to find Cybacat signing on.  Murder is murder.  Perhaps murdering an 18-weeks unborn child with anecephaly is an even worse crime since that his or her defect makes him or her that much more helpless and vulnerable.  An extreme and unusual case?  Most definitely.  But I am curious how this woman would be dealt with in a world dictated by Cybacat's moral code.  I'm only serious.

See what you think.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

See, I told you the dreaded topic could be discussed calmly!  Rationally even.  Good sound comments, boys!  And how could anyone disagree?

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

QUOTE: QUOTE: See, I told you the dreaded topic could be discussed calmly! I would assume that it's much easier to be calm when only one side of the argument is present.

What time is it in Australia?

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Okay so it's 7:26 am Sunday in Sydney.  Getting ready for church time?

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

 "Let the heathens spill them on the dusty ground, God shall make them pay for each sperm that can't be found".

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNgotUM4gk8

"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"

I guess this is why you're not supposed to discuss the Dreaded Topic.  I always wondered why that was.  Now I know.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Wow, let alone all my lifelong seed spilling and save for a 1972 law - Roe vs Wade, I would be a double accessory to murder. You will not hear a peep out of me on the Dreaded Topic henceforth.

Pro Choice is the term-- I don't believe any people are  Pro Abortion.  Even though a group of Anti Abortionists screamed at me and waved their placards on my windshield damning me to hell , I will still hold any comments.  Have a good one, from a double accessory to murder.    

You're the real drama queens.

Spending so much time, to prove what? But, hey, I guess you're all right.

You don't make an omelette without breaking an egg.

 I guess stand-up comic is more valuable than ethical decisions.

Humor is a nice way to dodge the real questions. Keep up the good work.

Damn I wish I could be self-assured like you guys. 

The sound wind makes through the pines. The sentience of animals. What we fear and what lies beyond the darkness.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I checked out Hadley Arkes, Alleyghost. I've read the first five pages of the book from the Amazon website. Here's a link if anyone wants to look it over.  The part I read does an excellent job of setting up a case against abortion as a right. I would love to see him in a debate with someone making the case for legalized abortion. It would have to be the right person though. Not a Rosy O'Donnell type.  Maybe he has already done this.  Probably.

Next I looked over the history of abortion at Wikipedia.  I am not set in stone either way.  But what I am fairly convinced of is that all hell would break loose if abortion were criminalized to equal "Murder is Murder."  I think that is why we don't have a situation anywhere in the world where this concept is followed through to its logical conclusion -- life in prison/jail or capital punishment.  No, let me correct that.  Nowhere in the civilized world is this practiced.  Nowhere I know of.  Nor is there any historical corollary I can think of.  Tell me when and where if I'm wrong.

Here is what I walk away with after a little reading from the above sources --  Life presents some difficult dilemmas with imperfect results.  And I don't mean like deciding whether or not to have an abortion.  I mean difficult decisions about what is ethical and then following through with consistency once that decision is made.  Like Cyba said, you can have a feeling what you've done is wrong but do it anyway and later come up with a rationale for why it wasn't so bad. Maybe not even wrong at all.  And who's to say?  Isn't that being judgmental?  Etc.

If you do not believe in God, do not ascribe to a religion, and do not have a "guidebook," these decisions, it seems to me, become more squishy and based on individual contemplation. Hmmm, I would never steal from the poor but I don't see anything wrong with helping myself to the possessions of a rich person, especially if he is a mean and stingy rich person.  The more contemplative may draw the line at stealing period. But then their ethics might become challenged if stealing from the rich offers the opportunity to save a poor person. Robin Hood-ism. Without a codified set of ethics, each situation is up for review.  It's complicated.  A theoretical system of beliefs is fairly useless if you modify it when it is time for self-application. It's also fairly useless if it is only a classroom discussion of what I would do if...

Regardless of whether we are religious or not, we all rationalize our behavior to some degree. While there are some that would dispute this, I think it is the degree that is important.  That is why I keep harping on the application of punishment for those acts the state determines as crimes.  And fine, use the USA as the model if you wish. I was only saying we are not unique when it comes to legalized abortion.

This dreaded topic could be further subdivided into the religious realm.   However that angle is easier to understand. A developing human life -- from the point of sperm-egg merger -- is nascent human life.  Pretty indisputable.  If you take the position of Judeo-Christian-Islamic ethics, each of them would judge abortion to be a sin.  (haha, a dreaded word!)  The non-religious or the atheistic can fashion a looser definition but might still shy away from equating an early abortion to a last trimester abortion for example. Then there are some, like Princton's Professor Singer, who espouse "retroactive abortions" of a severely mentally handicpped child through the first couple years of life.  I understand those variety of opinion.

I am curious about how to apply these proposed laws in the real world of flawed human beings -- i.e. every one of us. Because, see, this abortion thing -- although as old as prostitution, murder, adultry, and theft -- is one where the legal remedies have NOT been as consistently applied over the years.   And hence, my questions about how this would work out in a real politik sense.

Okay?

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin