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1. Thursday, August 2, 2007 2:29 PM
nuart Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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I liked this little article from last Sunday's NYTimes.  See what you think.  Whatever you think -- whether you're religious or anti-religious -- it's interesting noting how the human mind rekeels from forsaking that probably pleasant option of an afterlife.

July 29, 2007
The Way We Live Now

Eternity for Atheists

If God is dead, does that mean we cannot survive our own deaths? Recent best-selling books against religion agree that immortality is a myth we ought to outgrow. But there are a few thinkers with unimpeachable scientific credentials who have been waving their arms and shouting: not so fast. Even without God, they say, we have reason to hope for — or possibly fear — an afterlife.

Curiously, the doctrine of immortality is more a pagan legacy than a religious one. The notion that each of us is essentially an immortal soul goes back to Plato. Whereas the body is a compound thing that eventually falls apart, Plato argued, the soul is simple and therefore imperishable. Contrast this view with that of the Bible. In the Old Testament there is little mention of an afterlife; the rewards and punishments invoked by Moses were to take place in this world, not the next one. Only near the beginning of the Christian era did one Jewish sect, the Pharisees, take the afterlife seriously, in the form of the resurrection of the body. The idea that “the dead shall be raised” was then brought into Christianity by St. Paul.

The Judeo-Christian version of immortality doesn’t work very well without God: who but a divine agent could miraculously reconstitute each of us after our death as a “spiritual body”? Plato’s version has no such need; since our platonic souls are simple and thus enduring, we are immortal by nature.

The Platonic picture may be pleasing, but it is hard to square with what we have learned from neuroscience. Everything that gives each of us our personal identities — consciousness, character, memories and so on — seems rooted in the electrochemical processes of our brains. As Bertrand Russell observed, “A virtuous person may be rendered vicious by encephalitis lethargica, and . . . a clever child can be turned into an idiot by a lack of iodine.” The dependence is most cruelly apparent in cases of Alzheimer’s disease, where the dissolution of the self proceeds in direct proportion to the physical deterioration of the brain.

Where does this leave those who, while secular in outlook, still pine after immortality? A little more than a century ago, the American philosopher William James proposed an interesting way of keeping open the door to an afterlife. We know that the mind depends on the physical brain, James said. But that doesn’t mean that our brain processes actually produce our mental life, as opposed to merely transmitting it. Perhaps, he conjectured, our brains allow our minds to filter through to this world from some transcendent “mother sea” of consciousness. Had James given his lecture a few decades later, he might have used the radio as a metaphor. When a radio is damaged, the music becomes distorted. When it is smashed, the music stops altogether. All the while, however, the signal is still out there, uncorrupted.

James’s idea of immortality may sound far-fetched, but for him and other scientifically minded thinkers of his time it had one great virtue. It explained the existence of what were thought to be psychic phenomena: ghostly apparitions, communications from the dead at séances and seeming cases of reincarnation. Alas, little of this supposed evidence for an afterlife has held up under the scrutiny of rigorous investigation.

In the 1970s, a new hope for survivalists emerged: the near-death experience. In the best-selling book “Life After Life,” a doctor and parapsychologist named Raymond A. Moody Jr. presented a number of cases in which patients who had flat-lined and then been revived told of entering a long tunnel and emerging into a dazzling pool of light, where they communed with departed loved ones. In 1988, the atheist philosopher A. J. Ayer had such an adventure when he choked on a piece of smoked salmon and his heart stopped for a few minutes. Soon afterward, Ayer reported that his near-death experience, in which he saw a red light that seemed to govern the universe, “slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death . . . will be the end of me.” But he later dismissed it as a hallucination caused by a temporary lack of oxygen in his brain.

The most interesting possibilities for an afterlife proposed in recent years are based on hard science with a dash of speculation. In his 1994 book, “The Physics of Immortality,” Frank J. Tipler, a specialist in relativity theory at Tulane University, showed how future beings might, in their drive for total knowledge, “resurrect” us in the form of computer simulations. (If this seems implausible to you, think how close we are right now to “resurrecting” extinct species through knowledge of their genomes.) John Leslie, a Canadian who ranks as one of the world’s leading philosophers of cosmology, draws on quantum physics in his painstakingly argued new book, “Immortality Defended.” Each of us, Leslie submits, is immortal because our life patterns are but an aspect of an “existentially unified” cosmos that will persist after our death. Both Tipler and Leslie are, in different ways, heirs to the view of William James. The mind or “soul,” as they see it, consists of information, not matter. And one of the deepest principles of quantum theory, called “unitarity,” forbids the disappearance of information. (Stephen Hawking used to think you could destroy your information by heaving yourself into a black hole, but a few years ago he changed his mind.)

If death is not extinction, what might it be like? That’s a question the Harvard philosopher Robert Nozick, who died five years ago, enjoyed pondering. One of the more rococo possibilities he considered was that the dying person’s organized energy might bubble into a new universe created in that person’s image. Although his reflections were inconclusive, Nozick hit on a seductive maxim: first, imagine what form of immortality would be best; then live your life right now as though it were true. And, who knows, it may be true. “Life is a great surprise,” Vladimir Nabokov once observed. “I do not see why death should not be an even greater one.”

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

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2. Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:15 PM
herofix RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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Yay philosophy!

My personal opinion is that while God (in the way that term is widely used) may not indeed be necessary for immortality, I wouldn't be banking on the afterlife.

One of the most frustrating experiences for me studying philosophy is that to really examine the fundamental questions of philosophy now - such as 'What happens to us when we die', the findings of incredibly able mathemeticians and physical scientists are increasingly looked to.  The things that Einstein and Hawking say about the world are profoundly important to these kinds of questions, but a bog-standard mind like my own has almost no hope of truly grasping the concepts they posit.

Whereas even in the middle of the last century, relatively 'normal' people like William James and John Dewey (while taking a break from inventing his famous decimal system) could theorise about epistemology and the nature of truth, and have that work become influential while still being able to make it accessible to a layman, contemporary philosophers are using things like the theory of relativity and quantum physics to try to break new ground, and it hurts my pride to know that I can never operate on that level.

Anyways, don't you just love Bertrand Russell?  He might be my numero uno philosophy hero.

 

 


An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
 
3. Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:33 PM
LogicHat RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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I don't put a whole lot of stock into the concept of an afterlife- why not get the most out of the life we know we have?- but I wouldn't mind being wrong.

I can't say I have a firm grasp on quantum physics either, but I do like to stroke my goatee and say, "Hmm" whenever the concept is brought up. Then I make reference to an episode of Quantum Leap using a very pompous voice.


Logic Hat Online- logichat.org


 
4. Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:45 PM
Booth RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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QUOTE:

If God is dead, does that mean we cannot survive our own deaths?

And if Philip K. Dick was right about people in the future being schizophrenic, and Julian Jaynes was right about the bicameral mind - God could be making a comeback...in the future*!

*afterlife of the present.

 
5. Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:37 AM
Raymond RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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I had an uncle Hugo ,a brilliant internationally known Danish scientist ( Biophysicist), They came from all over Europe for his funeral in 1973. Anyway he believed that the soul may survive death. One of his inventions is named after him -the Frickeometer. He knew all the big names, Oppy, Einstein etc. He worked on the Manhattan project at Argonne in Chicago, linked with Hanford in Washington, Oak Ridge, and Los Alamos. He was working on cancer as he was succumming to it in his last years.

The man married my aunt, so the brilliance is not in my family. You probably guessed that.

Here is one link of many about my Uncle Hugo RIP. ( second section of article)

www.sciencenews.org/articles/20021214/timeline.asp

http://www.case.edu/artsci/dittrick/site2/museum/artifacts/group-c/c-6dosimiter.htm

He enjoyed when my new young wife played classical piano pieces for him at his estate. He left me $20,000 1973 dollars. He was a wonderful man. It was a treat to spend time with him. Had I been around sooner i would have met Albert Einstein and Frau Einstein when they visited Hugo and my aunt, Hugo originally studied under Niels Bohr.

 
6. Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:39 AM
Booth RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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QUOTE:

I had an uncle Hugo ,a brilliant internationally known Danish scientist ( Biophysicist)

This sounds a bit like the book Uncle Tungsten by Oliver Sacks.

 
7. Sunday, August 19, 2007 11:43 AM
nuart RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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Very impressive lineage, Raymond!  I just read his obit.  It was 1972, by the way, but close enough.  $20,000 in '72 or '73 was about the same.  A nice tidy sum.  I hope you used it well.  Bought stock in IBM or something.

I don't know many scientists.  Wish I did. They always seem like fascinating animals.  

Is Aunt Dorothy still around?  Bet she has some fascinating stories to tell.  I see he was a bachelor until she swept him off his middle-aged feet.  

Interesting that he was involved with the Cleveland Clinic too, a place I know and love.

Susan 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
8. Sunday, August 19, 2007 1:05 PM
Raymond RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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Yes Susan, Uncle Hugo was a rare man. I was fortunate to have known him. Aunt Dot RIP died in 1980. She was 17 years older than my father who had me when my mom was 42. In those days that was rare. The man ( my father)not taking any chances kept trojans in his dressser until he died RIP at 68 and Ma was 63 !

Interesting that Hugo believed the soul may survive death.

( Aunt Dot thought Hugo was so attractive sitting in his chair with his legs crossed. I guess she wanted to uncross his legs? ) 

 
9. Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:42 PM
Kevin6002 RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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It depends on how you look at it.

 
10. Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:36 AM
nuart RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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QUOTE:It depends on how you look at it.

...which pretty much holds true for just about everything.

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
11. Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:13 PM
Kevin6002 RE: Is God Necessary for Immortality?


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What I mean is if you look at the garden of Eden story and angel was placed in the garden to keep Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of life.  So, on one hand they could keep living on the other hand, it was God who formed them in the first place.

 

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