I know it's been discussed many times,before..but I've been thinking a lot about that...I love how Twin Peaks ends(Coop possessed by BOB,hero becoming evil,etc...) To me Twin Peaks will always be the best show in the world ever,made by the greatest genius Lynch!I've learned a lot from the two worlds that exist in Twin Peaks..Despite the fact that I love the ending(I am sure you all do) isn't it sad that evil indeed always wins in the real world,too..not only in a town like Twin Peaks? As if evil is stronger than goodness...I've been realizing with every single day that all good things come to an end soon or later...as if goodness is less,why is so easy to do something bad and so difficult to do something good today?..Now I'm more than sure that there IS BOB in the real world,too...not in a physical form,but evil can be felt...And maybe now I can support the theory we used to discuss here before,about BOB being a representation of evil that men do...

Technically, Cooper isn't possessed by Bob at the end, according to Lynch. The good Dale is in the Lodge still, whereas the doppelcoop is out in the real world. Do you really think it's hard in the real world to do good things?
 I would think you would have been in prison a couple times if that were true... "It's SO EASY to steal these groceries! It's much harder to pay for them!" :)

I was not talking about myself:)...I always try to do good things,and for me it's easy to do good...but in my life I've met a lot of people who were bad...What I tried to say is that if it's easy to do good things, it's easier to do bad things..

it's easier to do bad things..

Is not holding the door for others a bad thing? Because that's pretty easy.

Beating someone up and taking their money is a bad thing, and probably not that easy to do. 

You misunderstood me, Booth:) Your example : YES! PHYSICALLY  it may not be easy to beat someone up and to steal their money...that's not what I meant...but why to steal someone's money and harm them,instead of trying to earn money in a fair way...That's what I wanted to say...Why do most of the people think of bad things,instead of doing something good..That's what Laura tried to do,we all know she was a good personality ,sensitive,generous,open-hearted young girl...but unfortunately tainted,because she didn't have any choice...to survive...again evil was stronger than goodness..

I was thinking of this when listening to the radio yesterday. A pacifist was saying that he was against all wars (surprise! surprise!). But it is just not possible to stop all wars happening because how do you combat someone that uses mass murder against just trying to be good. It doesn't work and you have no choice if you want to stop them but to use their tactics and go to war.

I know what you're getting at with this topic, but in my opinion, there is no such thing as good or evil.  It's a personal choice wether you view something as good or evil.  To the serial killing rapist, what he's doing isn't evil or bad to him.  It is only evil and bad to us.  I'm not condoning negative behavior, just making my point.

I know what you're getting at with this topic, but in my opinion, there is no such thing as good or evil.  It's a personal choice wether you view something as good or evil.  To the serial killing rapist, what he's doing isn't evil or bad to him.  It is only evil and bad to us.  I'm not condoning negative behavior, just making my point.

 I can't say I have any experience on the topic but I would guess that a serial killing rapist would find his own actions bad, if not evil.

I can see why sometimes it is difficult to do good. However, I think we should not let this stop us. We need to keep fighting and trying. If we try hard enough, perhaps good will triumph over evil. If we do nothing and let evil things happen, then evil will triumph. We have to keep fighting against the evil in the world.

I love how Twin Peaks ends(Coop possessed by BOB,hero becoming evil,etc...) To me Twin Peaks will always be the best show in the world ever,made by the greatest genius Lynch!I've learned a lot from the two worlds that exist in Twin Peaks..Despite the fact that I love the ending(I am sure you all do) isn't it sad that evil indeed always wins in the real world,too..not only in a town like Twin Peaks?

Great question, great post, Ivalinda.

So, aside from the good v. evil thing in the real world, what do you think about the balance of good and evil in TP--particularly in the Red Room sequence in the last episode?

I was having a conversation with a new TP fan this evening (just finished the last episode yesterday) and he said he was troubled by the lack of balance in the White Lodge / Black Lodge sequence. Now, I think everything in TP is perfect, so it's hard for me to judge, but as I thought about it I wondered if there might be something more interesting to pursue there. Namely that, if we do see perfect evil in the Black Lodge what do you consider to be its counterpart in the White Lodge?

What do folks on this board think? What are your top five moments that you consider to be White Lodge elements of the show?

Here are mine: ********************8POILERS****************************

1. Laura, laughing, w/ angel

2. Coop saying that he would give his soul to save Annie

3. LMFAP giving the clues about the case, specifically about the gum and the birds singing

4. It doesn't happen in the Red Room, but I really like the picture that Mrs. T gives to Laura and it feels like a WL moment to me

5. The Giant/Old man giving Coop a cup of coffee in the RR. Although I'm not sure if this is a WL or a BL element, actually

Ok, and finally a couple more questions about the whole evil v. good definition in the space of the Lodges:

1. Is it perfect courage? or Love that allows one to make it through to the BL unscathed?

2. Why is Maddy in the lodge? Is she trapped in the BL? If so, why? She seems perfectly innocent to me.

3. Does everyone live in the Lodges with two spirits/sides to themselves? Good and Evil?

Thanks to all for your thoughts on these issues. I'm just re-watching everything now that I have my Gold Box and I'm super fired-up!!

SPOILERS 

1. That's what Hawk said, and Cooper didn't have perfect courage. He just ran away from his doppelganger instead of facing it

 2. Maddy is in the Black Lodge because she was careless enough to dress up as Laura thus being the catalyst for Jacoby's attack

3. Someone's evil side can be found in the Black Lodge, and in Cooper and Laura's case, it can escape and leave the good side trapped. 

I think Maddy was trapped in the Black lodge,because she was killed by BOB...and everyone,who gets killed by BOB is trapped in the Black Lodge,in Josie's case...her soul was taken by BOB and trapped in the wooden drawer...And one more thing,I don't think Laura's doppelganger can escape and leave the Black Lodge,like Coop's.Because Cooper was alive when he entered the BL,and Laura was trapped,cause she was killed by BOB,there's no body,no physical form of Laura...

Thank you for joining the topic,guys! 

Thanks for the replies, PV & Ivalinda.

**************************SPOILERS**************************

So, I watched the RR sequence again last night and I noticed a couple of different things. First, I don't think Maddy is trapped in the BL. She appears to Coop, is identified as a friend by LMFAP, and warns him about her cousin. Then, she vanishes--which is something I don't think I ever saw someone do in the RR previously. Second, I wondered about the purpose of the RR and whether it really was supposed to be balanced in terms of good and evil in the first place. What do you think? Does RR = BL? What, then, is the WL? Do we ever really get to see a representation of that on film?

I don´t see the RR as the Black or White Lodge. Well, in a sense I do. Hmmm, I see the RR as a reflection of Coopers mind. He´s facing himself here, his fears, the ones he loves...

Anyways. I was wondering if anyone know about the legend of Faust. I don´t know much myself but a friend of mine brought this to my attention. Well, what I could find of wikipedia said that the story is about Faust who sold his soul to the devil (my friend thought it was in order to get the woman he loved) but here it said that he did it so that the devil would serve him for a time. They made a a contract written in blood (can´t help but think of the paper saying "fire walk with me") and in most of the Faust stories (there are apparently several) he gets his soul back after the devil has served him for a time.

Does someone know the full story. Thought it was interesting 

That's pretty interesting legend,Ditte!Thanks for sharing!:) I,too think that RR is not the BL,nor WL...actually here are some thoughts...

 The WL and BL both existed from the beginning of time. TP happens to be the site of the WL, which happens to be in our world and in our time-plane. The BL also has a physical 'site', though it is in a different temporal and spatial plane. Both worlds are completely independent of one other, but occasionally there are points in time and space at which physical gateways open up between the worlds -- as depicted by the petroglyph in Owl cave. Coop tries to explain the fact that time for each Lodge is independent to Sheriff Truman using the meteor metaphor, essentially describing the ideas of relativity.  Just as there are spirits that inhabit the BL, there are spirits in the WL. The WL spirits still exist in the woods, but they have very little power in our present. At some point in the history of TP power over the WL was possessed by the spirits of the BL. In fact, we are told precisely when this occurred, again by Earle. It was when the Dugpas began to experiment with the power that they could gain via the BL. The spirits in the BL conferred some of their power on the Dugpas in return for an entry to the woods of TP. The power of the Dugpas was really an illusion -- the BL spirits were exploiting them to increase their own power. The BL spirits are not able to cross between the two worlds at will - they need a special 'invitation': the spoken words "Fire Walk With Me". When these words are spoken, a spirit may cross from one Lodge to the other. So, in return for certain power, the Dugpas gave the spirits the opportunity to enter the WL through their chants, and they also provided the spirits with the fear that they need to survive outside the BL.

I don´t see the RR as the Black or White Lodge.

That's because the last episode is a work of retconning on Lynch's part. The whole black/white lodge was going somewhere else, as anyone who has read the script for the last episode would know.

Lynch used the setup but instead of two distinct places, we got one place, plus the one he had already used - the waiting room. Much like the most powerful person in a small town - no hat=mayor. Police hat=chief of police. Helmet=chief of the fire department. One and the same.

Really glad to see you back here iva. You sure know how to spice this place up a bit with your classic TP questions/theories! I really miss them. Not complaining, (since it´s been ages sinces I´ve come up with anything decent myself.) just happy :)

Ditte 

(w/ comments)

1. TP happens to be the site of the WL, which happens to be in our world and in our time-plane. The BL also has a physical 'site', though it is in a different temporal and spatial plane. Both worlds are completely independent of one other, but occasionally there are points in time and space at which physical gateways open up between the worlds -- as depicted by the petroglyph in Owl cave.

2. Coop tries to explain the fact that time for each Lodge is independent to Sheriff Truman using the meteor metaphor, essentially describing the ideas of relativity.

3. Just as there are spirits that inhabit the BL, there are spirits in the WL. The WL spirits still exist in the woods, but they have very little power in our present.

4. At some point in the history of TP power over the WL was possessed by the spirits of the BL. In fact, we are told precisely when this occurred, again by Earle. It was when the Dugpas began to experiment with the power that they could gain via the BL. The spirits in the BL conferred some of their power on the Dugpas in return for an entry to the woods of TP. The power of the Dugpas was really an illusion -- the BL spirits were exploiting them to increase their own power. The BL spirits are not able to cross between the two worlds at will - they need a special 'invitation': the spoken words "Fire Walk With Me". When these words are spoken, a spirit may cross from one Lodge to the other. So, in return for certain power, the Dugpas gave the spirits the opportunity to enter the WL through their chants, and they also provided the spirits with the fear that they need to survive outside the BL.

Thanks for the comments, iva. Before I launch in to a reply, let me make clear that I know I'm stretching the linearity of these points quite a bit beyond their intent. But I do want to try and reach a resolution with regard to the way in which good and evil are portrayed in Lynch's RR, BL/WL notation. And, related to that, if there's a sense of balance between good and evil in this story. Thanks for humoring me.

1. I agree with this idea--that the BL exists on a different spiritual/temporal/spatial plane and that living persons (from our perspective) are able to enter this "place". I also agree with Ditte's point--that the RR is a window into Coop's mind and I think that the BL would look quite differently if we were taken there from the POV of another character.

So maybe where my thinking is flawed is here: I always thought that the map lead to the place where the BL and the WL coexisted, so to speak. A different plane, yes, but one in which good and evil were kind of on an equal playing field. 'Ok BL, you've got doppelgangers. We've got X.' A person living in our plane (say, TP) OR a spirit after death might enter this place as a spiritual test of sorts. According to TP mythology, if confronting this place with perfect courage (or an absence of fear??), an enlightened state may follow. If confronting this place with less than perfect courage, BL inhabitants are fed their garmonbozia, grow stronger, and the person who entered may be SOL...at least for a bit. With this as my theory, what troubles me is that the "good" just isn't as easy to see in the spiritual plane. The only way to stay out of the BL appears to me to be actions in our plane/TP/present day. This strikes me more as the whole, "I'll show you my faith by my works" bit rather than what a person can have in their heart, in their spiritual walk, in their meditative, enlightened state--whatever you want to call it--to combat BL inhabitants. Are we perhaps not able to see the goodness in the RR representation of this place because it is colored through Coop's lenses?

2. Yeah, I like this part!

3. This gets at my first point--why are the WL spirits so weak? Well, perhaps that's a bit more obvious from a story-teller's perspective. Perhaps they are weak because that's the picture Lynch/Frost wished to paint of the present world. Perhaps my more burning question is: who are the WL spirits? Everyone who's not a doppelganger?

4. So a symbiotic relationship between WL and BL....hmmm, I like that too. Pure good can't even exist without pure evil.

The whole black/white lodge was going somewhere else, as anyone who has read the script for the last episode would know.

So, I read the script for the last episode...true dat, it was goin' somewhere else!

I'm not sure how much it matters to the end product, though. Don't you think Lynch shot it how he wanted to?

my user name is spelled incorrectly.

tatemae 

Regarding who the White Lodge spirits are, I would suggest the Angels! One in the train car and one in the Red Room. Also, the Giant, who helps Cooper solve the case, and thus apprehend BOB. (I read a description of the "Twin Peaks Trading Cards", and the card corresponding to the Giant said (perhaps half-jokingly) that he was "educated at the White Lodge").

Moreover, I would suggest the white horse, that appears to Sarah Palmer, perhaps with the intention of warning her that an event of great evil is about to happen, is a creature of the White Lodge, partly due to its colour.

that the RR is a window into Coop's mind and I think that the BL would look quite differently if we were taken there from the POV of another character.

Even though Lynch has said as much himself, it still makes me wonder about Leland's visit in FWWM.
It looks the same as always, and Cooper is not there. The only constant in all the red room scenes is LMFAP.

The case is never made that the above the convenience store scene is how Jeffries sees the red room, but as a meeting in the black lodge.

Yes, Booth, but it is fun (at least for me) to think of the RR as a creation of a mind tormented by the guilt and shame of the incest inherent in BOB's pursuit of Laura.  This way, Leland and Laura can share that same RR representation.  Coop has an "in" because of his deductive Tibetan technique (and the fact that he's just Coop).

I like to think of it kinda like the original Silent Hill, where the bizarre version of the town is a twisted representation of Alissa's pain, both physical and emotional, brought about by her mother's abuse.

Using this idea, you could run with your Jeffries BL-as-room-above-the-convenience-store theory.  I tend to think of this as a more visceral location, however, since Mike, after all, means it "like it is, like it sounds."

Yes, Booth, but it is fun (at least for me) to think of the RR as a creation of a mind tormented by the guilt and shame of the incest inherent in BOB's pursuit of Laura. This way, Leland and Laura can share that same RR representation. Coop has an "in" because of his deductive Tibetan technique (and the fact that he's just Coop).

Or maybe, just maybe, it's a space station orbiting Solaris.
And having the RR as Laura's creation seems to tie in with the idea of Bob as the evil that men do.
Which is an idea that I'm not very fond of.

Using this idea, you could run with your Jeffries BL-as-room-above-the-convenience-store theory.

It's not my theory. It's brought up every time someone talks about that scene.

Moreover, I would suggest the white horse, that appears to Sarah Palmer, perhaps with the intention of warning her that an event of great evil is about to happen, is a creature of the White Lodge, partly due to its colour.

I don't think the Giant comes from the WL.He's a Black Lodge inhabitant,such as LMFAP,BOB,Mike/Gerard are(and probably the Tremonds/Chalfonts)! LMFAP also helps Cooper,giving him some very important clues,but that doesn't mean he's from the WL.Mike/Gerard tells Cooper that the giant is familiar to them,so that's why I think he comes from the BL and also cares about the garmonbozia thing(like the rest BL spirits) ,and perhaps his intentions to help Cooper are not so pure,either..

As for the White horse in Sarah's visions...I think it just represents death(as far as I know white horse is a symbol of death) or it could symbolize drug use...We know that Leland/BOB drugs Sarah every time he wants to do his dirty job;)
 

Really glad to see you back here iva. You sure know how to spice this place up a bit with your classic TP questions/theories! I really miss them. Not complaining, (since it´s been ages sinces I´ve come up with anything decent myself.) just happy :)

Ditte 

 Thanks,Ditte:) I'm glad to know you like my theories!:)) I miss this great board and my buddies here so much!! Luckily, now I can use internet more often....You know I live in Twin Peaks :) xoxo

Iva