First Obama ; then Cheney. You can read them here.

I was stunned by Obama's tone -- angry, defensive, hostile and accusatory.  And very looooong too.  I think he is understanding in a gradual sense what it means to put into practice all those theories only talked about in universities and legislative chambers.

Cheney = most perfect rebuttal though it was not intended as such per se.  His speech was planned before Obama's press conference today.  Say what you will about Dick Cheney, I thought he made mincemeat of Obama's arguments.

Anybody else hear them both?  Jordan???

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I'll give you that Cheney's speech was well written.  I'm not sure what it says that he now appears to be one of the most persuasive spokespeople for issues championed by the GOP. While it is probably beneficial for everyone that there are people on the right doing more than attempting to rename the democratic party, this may not bode well for the GOP.

It was ENTIRELY intended as a direct rebuttal, however. (Obama released the text of his speech before it was given, and Cheney's audience at the American Enterprise institute watched Obama's speech on a big screen immediately before.  The talking points on both sides are already well aired).

I think the only real question Cheney raised in my mind is about the information we actually gained specifically from waterboarding, as opposed to other methods from those suspects or from other suspects.  Obviously I don't know what is being withheld, but it does seem odd that it can't be released with some of the rest of the info.

Additionally, the point that it was used only on three high-value targets probably deserves to be re-iterated more.

I also did laugh at this quote:

[I might add that people who consistently distort the truth in this way are in no position to lecture anyone about “values.”]

pot, kettle?

National Security is a high stakes endeavor that is not easy.  I still find the contempt and dismissal of "winning hearts and minds"  pretty naive as part of an overall strategy. 

Jordan .

Really?  i feel like we've been talking about this issue for years.  Ever since the dems took back congress there has been open conflict between bush adm and congress over this issue.   Definitely since before the election- and certainly Guantanamo was one of Obama's platforms.

 And I think mincemeat is in the eye of the beholder ;)

The outrage over "torture" has seemed to me as so... so... hard to fathom, I suppose.  When having this discussion here once before I think we all came to the conclusion that whatever the actual policy, if the circumstances evolved to a situation where there really was a 'ticking bomb' the policy would have to go the Jack Bauer way with a handful of people ever knowing what happened.

My brother who was in the Air Force during Vietnam has been visiting.  He told us all about his survival training and laughs at the so-called torture of terror suspects delineated in the memos.  Their training was based on the actual prisoner abuse going on in North Vietnam at the time and was seriously brutal.  Only the strong survive type of thing. 

So the idea that this is a major deal for some seems to me more of a disdain toward Bush than the actual policies.  

When I listened to Obama I wondered what he has had to say about his idol, Abe Lincoln, and the treatment of Confederate soldiers, the suspension of habeas corpus and some of the other 'transgressions' of the Civil War. 

I'm just glad to have had the two sets of views presented in close proximity as they were.  If Cheney meant his speech as a response, that's fine with me too.  I didn't know that was so but I guess you're right that both sides know one another's points pretty well by now.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Jordan .

yep, defense of torture is going on in this thread just wanted to check in and confirm it. have fun, i'm never looking in here again

Jordan .

Susan

PS  Gitmo has served as a model prison.  I like the location too.  

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Jordan .

Biohazard wrote re/Cheney's speech:

 It was ENTIRELY intended as a direct rebuttal, however. (Obama released the text of his speech before it was given, and Cheney's audience at the American Enterprise institute watched Obama's speech on a big screen immediately before.  The talking points on both sides are already well aired).

I took this as factual.  But then I was reading two separate articles that would reverse the direct rebuttal claim.  It appears it was Obama's direct rebuttal to Cheney.

From the Main Street column (WSJ) by William McGurn:

 From US News section in the WSJ:

Mr. Obama scheduled his speech late last week, after Mr. Cheney's speech already had been publicly scheduled.  White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said the timing 'wasn't based on the fact that anybody else was speaking.'  Mr. Cheney delayed the scheduled beginning of his remarks by half an hour to wait for Mr. Obama to finish.

 

What I do agree with is that both men had made their views pretty clear in the days leading up to these speeches.  But what appears to be maybe a first in the Obama presidency is the prickliness in allowing a rival to get under his skin.  Even Robert Gibbs referencing Dick Cheney as "anybody else" is intentionally dismissive.

Having read a lot more on these polarizing sets of views, I still think it has been a worthwhile discussion whether there is a live Republican politician other than Cheney willing to speak out clearly on the issues he knows so much about.

One other fun Opinion piece from Bret Stephens .  Phase 1, Phase 2 and Phase 3 strategies taken from South Park Gnomes.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Jordan .

"Harry, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot, black coffee. Like this."  -Dale Cooper

"What? Did your life pass before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea..."

"Harry, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot, black coffee. Like this."  -Dale Cooper

 ...if they can't take a joke.

Geez, they don't even like cartoons for cryin' out loud.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin