we need a parliment

So, if you hold that there is no fundamental difference in marrying two men/two women from marrying one of each sex, then YOU are making a judgment call.  And that is:  Both sets of marriage are equal.  All deserve the same level of state sanction.  What follows is:  New Hampshire's little addendum to the law WILL be challenged not long after the dust settles.  For those religious institutions who remain true to their inspirational sources (Torah, Bible, Koran), they will have very little choice ... marry same sex couples when demanded or face criminal charges.  Trust me this will follow.  Some may think this change -- losing tax exempt status for such religious institutions -- is a good thing, but that too will be a consequence.  There are several obvious repercussions but these two are just a couple of the unintended ripple effect one can expect from this new found radical societal sea change on the way.

The differences between interracial marriage and same sex marriage are legion, May.  A black man and a white man or an Asian man are the same.  Likewise women of any race.  Must we now have to state that there is no difference between the two sexes?  No mainstream religious institution in the United States has ever advocated that marriage should not be allowed between members of different races.  Drawing the glib comparison between race and sexual orientation is a false one.

The rights remain "equal."  Any man/woman of age (and not a direct blood relative) is free to marry any other woman/man of age.  The consideration of selecting the same sex as a mate makes for a union which can be considered a marriage through many many outlets already including several liberal churches.  But it is not (at least not quite yet) a state "marriage" in any of the United States where the citizens have had the vote including the very left state of California.

I don't believe it is quite as cut and dry as you propose, May.  However, I do concede that it is very likely you will win this ultimate battle of redefining marriage, so feel cheery about that.  For me, I just want to add a little more to the discussion than the simplistic sleight of hand accusations you hear so often like: "gay-bashers," "how could you want to stop two loving people from spending their lives together" or "how does it affect YOUR marriage" arguments.

Susan

PS  So so glad we don't have a parliamentary system here.  The founding fathers were onto something!  The two-party system works well in forcing each toward a center that represents the bulk of Americans.  Parliamentary systems are a big mess with each little sub-group having its noisy voice heard. A cacophony of grievances where little is accomplished.  Archaic.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I sincerely doubt that any gays will be going to a Baptist church and asking the minster to marry them.  I don't think that it's a matter of saying that there is no difference between the sexes.  I just think that gays would like to see their love and relationships legitimized.  Also for tax and inheritance purposes.  But you're right, this is a dead horse.

One thing I do have against some leftists is the demonizing of the Christian faith.  I find it so ridiculous that, for example, schools won't perform Christmas carols that are about the birth of Jesus so as not to offend those of other faiths.  Or how they have taken saying the pledge of allegiance out of the classroom because it says "One nation under God."  I think it should just be left to the individual students whether they wish to participate or not.  Does everything have to be so f-ing PC?  Uugh.

A state marriage license is just another legal document, May.  Most devoted gay couples in life long relationships have already worked out a separate legal document regarding inheritance and financial issues. 

Maybe not a Southern Baptist church but there are plenty of churches -- Methodist, Lutheran, etc. -- with ministers who've already administered marriage vows to same sex couples.  

The goal of sanctifying same sex couples further by the state is a larger deal with a separate agenda by some. 

If the state (eg New Hampshire) rules that in the eyes of the law, same sex couples are no different than traditional man-woman marriages, there will be no amount of legal wiggle room when there is a same sex couple who contest this as separate but unequal regardless of the wording.  Can you say "can of worms"?

I concede it is a complicated issue.  (well, actually maybe you would disagree on that)  But as I said, I think the wheels are in motion for those who believe same sex marriage as an issue of negligible importance with little societal impact and for whom compassion for same sex couples is of the utmost importance.  And I think that overlooks so many other societal changes that will evolve.  I guess we'll all just wait and see.  That is, those of you who will live long enough to see how future generations are altered by this radical departure from what all previous generations have understood as "marriage."

Susan

PS  I don't care what Dick Cheney says on the subject.   

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to get married.  Are you married, Nuart?  If so, why?  I think it's kind of an outdated institution anyways.

May, have you always or at least as an adult felt that way v. marriage ? One good comic bit is to ask the gays why in the fing world would you want to " mess up a good thing and get married ! Think it thru folks." : )

But I think marriage is an existential species civilization norm. Stability and survivability at stake. Word from God or the Aliens ya know given to ancient tribal elders. Advise for the continuation and hopefully betterment of human life. ?

Yes, May, I am married.  Divorced once.  Married twice.  To the same man.  We met 39 years ago, married after knowing each other about 3 weeks, divorced on our first anniversary, remarried some four years later.

Why am I married?  It's been a part of me for the majority of my life now so the reasons have changed over time.  Initially I said 'yes' to the proposal even though I thought it was a little too soon and that I was too young. (23) Truthfully what went through my mind as I mulled it over the next few seconds -- well, if it doesn't work out, we could always get divorced seven years later. Off we went to Las Vegas!

Little did I know it would only take one year.  It was an immature and impetuous decision the first time.  We had an electrically charged relationship as is always the case in the early days of a mutual attraction.  Our divorce was more congenial than many marriages.   There was simply a recognition that we were not ready for marriage and it was my husband's idea as had been marriage.

Second time around we had gone our separate ways both dating others, living separate lives but talking and going out with each other every now and then.  Eventually out of convenience when his house lease was up, he moved in with me.  We still were living a semi-free relationship.  We were liberated adults.  Free thinkers.  I would have dates pick me up and introduce him as my ex-husband.  We thought it was funny. 

Living together we got back into the couple groove.  I was at that age where I started seeing BABIES-BABIES everywhere and losing my earlier Zero Population Growth sensiblities.  In July of 1975, we went to the Santa Monica courthouse where we had been divorced and married again.  

So, long story short, I am very very happy to be married to my husband.  Our history is so vast that it is impossible to imagine life without him.  Mutual support through difficulties when usually one or the other of us needs it.  The strengths of a couple help toward a stability I cannot otherwise imagine. 

In my early 20s, I used to think there were only two reasons to get married -- if you wanted to have children and to have someone with you in old age.  That was the incomplete thought process of a young thing but it's not completely wrong either.  It's just that it's more than that.  Making that commitment for a lifetime is a huge gamble but the payoffs over decades cannot be had in any other way.  Sure, I suppose you could cling to the "who needs a piece of paper" and still stay together over a lifetime but that would be far more rare.  The human psyche is such that I think the "piece of paper" -- a marriage license (and I'm not really even sure where ours is!) -- makes married men and women far less likely to bolt at the first sign of tension.

But I guess the argument over same sex marriage changes with the information that you don't think there is any real value to the institution except for homosexual couples.    Now that would be an interesting societal development!

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

 divorce? why do you have so little respect for the institution of marriage?

(i'm kidding)

In the "Gay Divorcee" stages with two Cockettes.  Had to dig deep in the archives to find this one.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Love that picture! 

As any fest attendees would say, thank you nuart for getting married and giving birth to the vast encyclopedia of Twin Peaks knowledge who makes the trivia contest possible. :)

ps I have been married and I just didn't like it much.  See what drugs can do?  You marry a man and 3 months later wonder who the hell this guy is that you're living with.

Yep, he is a font of knowledge, my boy, and not just Twin Peaks either.  Ask him about the Grassy Knoll some day!

May, you've given me an idea for a new thread --  a marriage thread.  I'll be posting it momentarily under "off topic."

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

We can all agree that it is interesting to read foreign news outlets to get a pulse on happenings via their opinion pieces. And speaking of Former Leftists, Pravda-the former Central Planning news organ of the Soviet Union ran an interesting op article recently."American capitalism gone with a whimper."

"It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people." ...

Concerning events and lessons of the past twenty years: "Those lessons were taken and used to properly prepare the American populace for the surrender of their freedoms and souls, to the whims of their elites and betters. "...

"The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been a record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more then another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe."

The article points out the Obama take over of private business, suspension of contract law, and the appointing of a slew of 'Czars' with no credentials, aside from political support, to set private sector pay rates, design and repair automobiles, and perhaps decide how citizens will or will not get medical care -- and that may be just for starters. I predict two ply bathroom tissue will be outlawed : )
      
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Pravda joins a chorus legitimately deriding the money printing/borrowing,the massive stimulus spending, and the Obama admins' unprecedented power grabs. While i don't see us as becoming Zimbabwe, the inevitable inflation will be a problem.  

But, leaving the economic arena for social issues: For U S progressives who are stymied by the backward US treatment of homosexuals, consider how mother Russia's Pravda views homosexuals. ( Check out the Muslim view while you are at it.)
The Pravda piece has this point of view. "Senator Barney Franks, a social pervert basking in his homosexuality (of course, amongst the modern, enlightened American societal norm, as well as that of the general West, homosexuality is not only not a looked down upon life choice, but is often praised as a virtue) and his Marxist enlightenment, has led this effort."

Yikes! Does that Ms. California Carrie Prejean really seem that bad?

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/

 Hmmm, you might have been in on the conspiracy, huh?

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin