aww, youre sweet too!

Yes, James was angsty. Wasn't he supposed to be modeled after James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause? The original 'emo Americano.' I seem to remember Marshall telling us that Lynch just always just gave him the simplest direction: 'Be James Dean, more Dean' and all the goofy stuff we mock was exactly what DL wanted out of the character.

I always am ashamed for him when he tells Donna "Those old folks must have some pretty neat stories, huh?" and then she humiliates him "He was bright, charming, intelligent. Completely unlike anyone I know," after Laura already called him dumb. And he forgave her, poor shmuck.

"I always am ashamed for him when he tells Donna "Those old folks must have some pretty neat stories, huh?" and then she humiliates him "He was bright, charming, intelligent. Completely unlike anyone I know," after Laura already called him dumb. And he forgave her, poor shmuck."

I suppose, I mean if any girl said that to me I would punch her in the face and repeatedly knee her in the vagina.

Now there is a post guaranteed to go over well ...not.

wizard, i think the point in james is that he is a mug, so desperate for love from a woman that he will take any amount of shit.   Plus,  i've learned very quickly that posting 'controversial' things for the sake of it is just dumb.

Yep. James has low self-esteem. Women beaters also have low self esteem. ;)

I believe it is physically impossible to knee a girl in the vagina anyways since it is internal and also behind the intestines.

Yep. James has low self-esteem. Women beaters also have low self esteem. ;)

 Well, that all women beaters have low self esteem is not necessarily true. An inability to feel empathy is maybe a more likely cause?

Yep. James has low self-esteem. Women beaters also have low self esteem. ;)

 Well, that all women beaters have low self esteem is not necessarily true. An inability to feel empathy is maybe a more likely cause?

i can see how you can read the sentence and have "women beaters" mean quantitively "all women beaters", but really youre making an assumption of her sentence. i think she she means extactly what you say in your reply. nice.
and back somewhere after the topic post-vaginal kicking, and i hope all that is done with, back on the topic of what's wrong with james being dumb? making mistakes, saying the wrong thing, the cliched thing, if this is in keeping in character, why is there so much criticism of james marshall if he was doing his job? apparently from what ive heard, he did it to great satisfaction of lynch, the series and FWWM. plus he did some great singing(screw you haters) on
"Just You."  
i think its mostly the plots or lack thereof that james was involved in didnt have him go through a larger dynamic range. it would be a legitimate criticism if his character was a wild man, and unpredicatable. we would expect and need a large dynamic range for the character to work. But james basically has three plots, the secret boyfriend, the new boyfriend(james and shortly harlold) and the grieving boyfriend. his identities are very tied up to his sexual positions(no not those kind) that he plays. other characters even express their disdain for his romantic idealism. he and donna really do break up about it too. he's the naive american male, the innocent(even a little dumb)(as lynch has used so many times), so i think its apt that we can mock him when he shows he still doesnt know enough of the ways or the world.
 

Yep. James has low self-esteem. Women beaters also have low self esteem. ;)

 Well, that all women beaters have low self esteem is not necessarily true. An inability to feel empathy is maybe a more likely cause?

i can see how you can read the sentence and have "women beaters" mean quantitively "all women beaters", but really youre making an assumption of her sentence. i think she she means extactly what you say in your reply. nice.

 

Take it easy, my friend! I was not putting anyone down.......And your just wrong when you say that my reply has exactly the same semantic content as what i replied to..............

You are being  just as annoying as James....

I agree with you about his musical skills, though.....That song he is singing is cool......
 

The vagina is mostly internal, but not that internal.

Ask James, he wears his on the outside of his jeans!

All kidding aside, I don't know what makes women abusers tick. I haven't read those psychology journals. I have heard it's a manifestation of an inability to effectively cope with problems, and coping skills are learned. (If they were abused themselves, that can lead to insecurity.) When coping causes even more problems, that's gotta make you feel powerless and bad about yourself on some level, right?

To relate this back to topic, we know that James had a drunken mother who abandoned him (withholding of affection is psychological abuse.) Her many boyfriends may have caused James to be confused about masculine role models. James Marshall said there was a definite sexual undertone in the deleted scene with himself and the mother character, and that the actress who played her looks like Evelyn Marsh, so he may have been sexually abused or felt pressured to take on the role of the man of the house, making him seek out neurotic women who resemble his mother in some way as partners, unable to ever see them as equals (both because he needs a loving mommy, and his mommy was always in charge.)

Anyhoo, one of my former professors railed against the word "empathy" and calls it an "Oprah word with no meaning." A person can't feel someone else's feelings, it's impossible, so sympathy is a better word.

I love hearing the love for "Just You and I." I don't like the way the vocals were mixed, and it's repetitive, but I like the melody. I want to discuss it in the ep 9 analysis I'm working on.

p.s. This thread was all intended to be tongue in cheek. The first two episodes are marvelous, if I didn't state that clearly already.

I've never understood all the hatred for James and Donna, which is fortunate, since they're in every episode and act as a conduit for most of the things we find out about Laura (and finding things out about Laura is good). Donna investigating meals on wheels is sublime and the James/Evelyn Marsh storyline wasn't great but I can't say I was horribly inconvenienced by it... The entire storyline can't have amounted to more than twenty minutes... That's minuscule... And I'm quite touched by the 50s chrome plated optimism of Just You and I...  

The vagina is mostly internal, but not that internal. Ask James, he wears his on the outside of his jeans! All kidding aside, I don't know what makes women abusers tick. I haven't read those psychology journals. I have heard it's a manifestation of an inability to effectively cope with problems, and coping skills are learned. (If they were abused themselves, that can lead to insecurity.) When coping causes even more problems, that's gotta make you feel powerless and bad about yourself on some level, right? To relate this back to topic, we know that James had a drunken mother who abandoned him (withholding of affection is psychological abuse.) Her many boyfriends may have caused James to be confused about masculine role models. James Marshall said there was a definite sexual undertone in the deleted scene with himself and the mother character, and that the actress who played her looks like Evelyn Marsh, so he may have been sexually abused or felt pressured to take on the role of the man of the house, making him seek out neurotic women who resemble his mother in some way as partners, unable to ever see them as equals (both because he needs a loving mommy, and his mommy was always in charge.) Anyhoo, one of my former professors railed against the word "empathy" and calls it an "Oprah word with no meaning." A person can't feel someone else's feelings, it's impossible, so sympathy is a better word. I love hearing the love for "Just You and I." I don't like the way the vocals were mixed, and it's repetitive, but I like the melody. I want to discuss it in the ep 9 analysis I'm working on. p.s. This thread was all intended to be tongue in cheek. The first two episodes are marvelous, if I didn't state that clearly already.

 Of course i don't disagree with the proposition that some women abusers have low self esteem.......I just wanted to point out that they are bastards......Their care - free environment with an inability to have a bad conscience is fucked......because society don't punish them properly.........

But i don't know.....sometimes i get the feeling that some women like to get smacked around and abused.....i dont know......and that many people don't see it as a really big deal, a part of life.......i dont know....

As a reply to your discussion of the word empathy......I hope you didn't think i was claiming a direct access to anothers emotional life, like some sort of emotional telepathy, when i used the word "empathy", because that is not how the word is defined.........

But your special definition of empathy raises an interesting point in relation to TP......Does Bob, who posesses Leland, feel Lelands emotions directly? When Leland gets the phone from Truman about his daughters death in episode 1, does Bob feel Lelands shock and sorrow?

I would guess he does not.......Maybe he has the power to access does emotions in Leland he chooses to access......and have the power to shut off the emotions he does not want to feel directly....... 

anyways, that specific moment i episode 1 is not a wtf moment, i think....but very moving......

faceintheleaves- Donna really grew on me, she can be simpering and haughty, but feel like she's fully realized. I SYMpathize with her character ;) James has to be the way he is for him to work as Laura's chosen one. His innocence and sweetness make him both a safe person, and a perfect victim for Laura

But i don't know.....sometimes i get the feeling that some women like to get smacked around and abused.....i dont know......and that many people don't see it as a really big deal, a part of life***.......i dont know....

As a reply to your discussion of the word empathy......I hope you didn't think i was claiming a direct access to anothers emotional life, like some sort of emotional telepathy, when i used the word "empathy", because that is not how the word is defined

 

wizardofzxenia, I know what you meant, but I've studied semantics and linguistics and have no idea what dicionary you're using, or what "lack of empathy" (OR sympathy) have to do with motivating abuse. Not to belabor an OT point but if you're going to argue, do some research first:

"em·pa·thy (Dictionary.com) 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.'

2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself:

The "intellectual identification" part of this word evolved from misuse in the 20th century, like many words have. It's Greek root means "affection or passion". It really only makes sense talking about a thing, but then only if you admit it's a fancy. Look up sympathy, I'm sure that's what you really meant. ;)

**Some women do like to get smacked around. If they get a thrill from pain, they're masochists. If it's part of erotic play, they're submissives. Which are different from victims of abuse. If anyone accepts abuse as a part of life in civilized Western society, this is a person who hates themselves or is grossly, woefully ignorant, ie. trash. Victim-blaming is is also an ignorant stance.

wizardofzxenia, I know what you meant, but I've studied semantics and linguistics and have no idea what dicionary you're using, or what "lack of empathy" (OR sympathy) have to do with motivating abuse. Not to belabor an OT point but if you're going to argue, do some research first: "em·pa·thy (Dictionary.com) 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.' 2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: The "intellectual identification" part of this word evolved from misuse in the 20th century, like many words have. It's Greek root means "affection or passion". It really only makes sense talking about a thing, but then only if you admit it's a fancy. Look up sympathy, I'm sure that's what you really meant. ;) **Some women do like to get smacked around. If they get a thrill from pain, they're masochists. If it's part of erotic play, they're submissives. Which are different from victims of abuse. If anyone accepts abuse as a part of life in civilized Western society, this is a person who hates themselves or is grossly, woefully ignorant, ie. trash. Victim-blaming is is also an ignorant stance.

 I think you are confused because you are agreeing with me, and disagreeing with yourself......You pasted in the definition of empathy and the word clearly has the meaning that i said it had. And then you say that i am wrong in my use of the word. The first definition above was what i intended to express, so i am not wrong. You are.

If you want to use "empathy" as they used in the 16th century or not what, thats ok with me......I am just using the word as the rest of the world is using it. I have a 21st century vocabulary and it suits me perfectly well.

And if you don't see the connection between lack of empathy and abuse, then i think the reason is that you just don't want to see it. The connection is there, trust me. You will realise it if you use logical reasoning.

And you blatantly state that victim blaming is an ignorant stance. And of course this is not always the case. 

I love when a tongue in cheek thread becomes a brawl about things unconnected to the thread title! (see my 'hows annie?' recent thread)

"I always am ashamed for him when he tells Donna "Those old folks must have some pretty neat stories, huh?" and then she humiliates him "He was bright, charming, intelligent. Completely unlike anyone I know," after Laura already called him dumb. And he forgave her, poor shmuck."

I suppose, I mean if any girl said that to me I would punch her in the face and repeatedly knee her in the vagina.

 Rough...real rough!

.

also, remember this is 89-93 if we included FWWM. angsty and emotional but in a sexy rocker i keep my distance and dont say anything persona was grunge at the time. no emo references allowed here kids.

Whatever gets you through the night, wiz.

Sure there can be a connection between not intellectually identifying with a person and violence (ie hate crimes.) What I'm saying is no one really intellectually identifies with anyone beyond superficial points, even when they imagine they do. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, and not *getting* where someone's coming from never frees you from your own internal cause-and-effect processes. Or causes you to cunt-punt them.

And yes, victims make choices that lead to the circumstances of the violence against them. The woman was drunk, or dressed provocatively, or mouthed off, or walked in that dark alley alone without pepper spray, but saying she ever asked for it and holding her responsible for the aggressor's actions IS ALWAYS IGNORANT. If she claims abuse, she's not a masochist, and she didn't invite the violence.

For example, we don't blame James for making women mean to him, we teasingly blame his reactions and lack of willingness, up until he rode off to San Francisco , to stop the behaviors that invite them to. Laura, Donna, Evelyn all think they know James, and use that to manipulate him. They know the button to push (that's the romance button) but James' didn't adopt those values so he could be treated badly. Though we joke that he must have.

*********************** Anyway-

Not a brawl, Cooped. ;) I share your grief, though, even if I contribute to it. It's not as if the forum is so busy and fast paced we can't take time out to start pointless lines of thought, meander and bicker about blanket statements.

Imagine James with floppy emo hair and guyliner and a lip piercing and low rise tight pants. Oh, no. He is far more masculine, the hog-riding stud, even if he's in the company of Keats and Shelley, the original emos. It's a state of mind... Didn't Donna break up with James because she saw him kissing Maddy? I gotta say, when he proposed to Donna then left town, I felt that the character has finally grown. Atta boy, Jim!