What a gem of a post, B.

Its the most obvious discrepancy and yet I have never heard a decent explanation...Why were these flights so under-populated? Its very intriguing. Theories?

Mark, I think you should read Susan's posts thoroughly before jumping in with your size 10's... 

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

"i got those links from a website jordan that had the various reason that were simplified out cant sya i have the time to check everything on there."

Before doing a copy and paste that you are trying to prove your point, might want to check the "evidence."

Specifically about the Newsmax one - many people say Congress did a halfway job. One of the things the ydidn't even look at was a military operation that knew about Atta before 9/11. They tried saying something about it but were shot down. This was during the Clinton administration. How about this for a conspiracy theory:

Anyone remember Berger? You know the guy who went into the classified files and left with a bunch stuff down his pants. He basically got a slap on the wrist. Anyway, did any of us ever find out what was in those documents? Could it be that they were documents that implemented Clinton into something involving 9/11 that he may have known or could've stopped. Clinton could've stopped 9/11 in the 90s by simply taking Sudan's offer and getting Bin Laden. HE could've stopped 9/11 a couple of times when he had a chance to actually drop a bomb or two on the guy. In one of those cases, Clinton couldn't be found (this was during the Monica days - wonder where he was?) and I forget the other - I think he decided against it. So now Clinton goes around giving speeches and was paid loads of money by none other than the Bin Laden family sometime in the past couple of years to come and speak in Saudia Arabia. So maybe the reason why Clinton didn't go after Bin Laden is becuase there's a covert group that is even higher than the President that is in control of everything, and they are the ones pulling the strings. Thye wanted to keep Bin Laden so AQ could be used later on for an even bigger thing. It had been for Clinton to do but he got all busy with Monica so that ruled Clinton out to do what the ywanted done. So they had to wait until the next President to do it, and well, we all know the rest.

There you go, five minute theory with actual facts thrown in just to create a paranoid theory of what actually may be happening in the world.  

Jordan .

I'm about 20 minutes into this regurgitation (using the bad version of the word) of all consipriacies I've ever heard about 9/11.

First, the quotes at the beginning, I am fairly confident, were taken out of context. Anytime you see one-liner quotes, it's pretty sure thing they are out of context.

Second, the scenes showing that bombs brought down the WTC (the montage), they totally blow their own foot off by showing the second building. If you watch it carefully, you can acually see the building beginning to collapse from the point of the crash. It started just above it. It didn't start anywhere else. We are talking about tons of material beginning to melt. It's like a snow avalanche. An avalance can begin with a single little item and within minutes be huge and can destroy everything in its way. It's called PHYSICS.

Third, now they are talking about the Pentagon and how it wasn't really a plane. Question 1 - where are the people that were on that plane? How can you explain away the disappearance of a few dozen people? Question 2 - if we are supposed to see all those plane parts, wings, etc, then they should be asking the same question regarding the three other flights (including the ones that hit the WTC). Using that same logic, shouldn't the plane's wings have fallen at impact isntead of disappearing in fire and smoke? Flight 93's crash site also didn't have much debris either. When you have that much jet fuel which burns at a higher temperature than normal fuel, it's damn possible that nothing could be left. Oh, and then that little bit about the guy who didn't know how to fly and land a plane! C'mon, now....the guy didn't have to take off. He just needed to know which way to go, and then crash it - landing was the last thing on his mind. "If the nose caused this hole, then where's the rest of the plane?" Oh please!!!!!! WHEN WAS THAT PCITURE TAKEN? MAYBE THAT PICTURE WAS TAKEN AFTER IT WAS ALL CLEANED UP? EVER THINK THAT MAYBE SOME/MANY OF THE PHOTOS ARE NOW CLASSIFIED FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS?!?! "Where did this fireball come from?" at the Pentagon? Oh, let's see gas leak? REsidual explostion caused by a plane impact? PLEASE? This is so frickin' stupid!

There's absolutely no way I am going to watch this entire thing because as Susan said, been there, done that, heard almost all of it. But this little documentary doesn't even have sources for their information. They seem to be using simple and basic visual logic to prove their point which is flawed from the beginning. How about some real sources who know something about how planes crash - not just a photo montage comparing planes who may not have the same amount of fuel that crashed somewhat differently?

BTW - it wasnt a B52 bomber that hit that building back in the 50s. It was a B-25 Mitchel (check out WIKI for the info) "Other buildings didn't collapse," Uhm----did any of them have high-burning jet fuel burning in them?!?!?! So simple and basic logic.

But the best thing about this thing - he connected Bush's youngest brother Marvin Bush with this whole thing too!!!! LOL!!! Please.

Actually scratch that - I scanned through it - my favorite is when these "truth-seekers" decided to put a quote up on the screen from Osama himself saying that he didn't do these attacks within days of 9/11. Okay, fine, but interesting that they will believe what a known terrorist who tried to blow up WTC in the early 90s, but take the official findings of 9/11 from the US govt - nope, can't have that now can we? Gotta love it. So now, let's fast forward to the why's because I'm sick of the rest of it.

So what do these seek-truthers is the reason why this happened? Stocks, gold - just good ol' greed by a bunch of "tyrants" (their word, not mine).

Which leaves me with one question - if Al Gore had been president, and 9/11 happened, would I have just wasted an hour and a half of my Sunday morning watching this nonsense?

Jordan .

Your final question is hilarious, Jordan and worthwhile to consider. But, yes, though, I'm quite sure there'd be gazillions of conspiracy theories even if Al Gore had been elected. Catastrophic events always generate theories by the Truth Seekers in the Midst. The difference would be, in my opinion, that the guilty party would still remain George W Bush and his evil administration. The stories would have to be slightly altered but Al Gore would have become another victim of the Republican orchestrated plot.

I wonder if Mark is reading any of my links. The Popular Mechanics one hits all the high notes nicely.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Now if this is true, I am going to need to do some serious reevaluating about that huge benefit of a doubt I was discussing on those Maharishi Peace Palace threads.

I got this from Dylan Avery's blog TODAY!

4.09.2006

Do you think they spotted us? Give me a donut.
So...David Lynch, director of Twin Peaks and Mulholland Drive, plugs our movie in his daily weather report.

Sweet.

edit: And, his blog is almost all about 9-11...

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Truth is out. Oh, and Colin Quinn got a few copies a while back. Along with Doug Stanhope and Joe Rogan, I think it's safe to say 9-11 Truth has infiltrated Comedy Central, dare I say Hollywood itself.

posted by dylan avery at 1:47 PM

Does anyone know if this is true??? Is David Lynch promoting THIS on his website??? Well, at least the one comment was amusing...

thefinman said...

A gaggle of undergrads and a smattering of Hollywood elites don't quite make a movement. College kids will hop onto any bandwagon if there's a hint of anti-establishment rightousness involved. Hell, look at France. One-million dumb college kids just ruined the French economy for no better reason than feeling like they can effect something larger than themselves. You guys don't represent a formidable social force for change out here. You're involved in the kind of thing that adults wistfully look back on thirty years later and say, "what can I tell you, I was a kid. I thought there was a conspiracy."

2:00 PM

Susan

PS  It is true that David Lynch announces a "documentary that asks some 'interesting questions.'"  Then there is a blog apparently, but I don't think you can access the blog unless you are a member.  Lots of comments but nothing from David Lynch.  Generally, when someone does the old hmmmmmm, interesting questions -- ala Howard Dean's "interesting theory..." -- I think I get the point that's being made.  Oh dios mios...... 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Kelly and I were talking about the documenary (she didn't watch it). So I was explaining what they did and what they were saying. For example, they showed "puffs of smoke" just before and during the collapse of the towers as examples of bombs. I said to her "Let's see, the buildings are beginning to fall. The metal is weakening. The structure framework is collapsing. Of course there may be puffs of smoke going off left and right as a building starts collapsing under its weight." And then I thought, "Look, if the government was involved, don't you think they would've been a bit more discreet so that no one would've seen such a thing. They would've known everyone and their dog would've been taping the WTC that morning. Seriously, I tend to think they would've planted the bombs internally so that the explosions wouldn't be as obvious just like in the majority of montages the documnetary showed of buildings they were intended to come down. Plus if the intention was to kill a few thousand people for some gold and stocks, who cares if you ended up killing a few more hundred. Seriously, they could've planted those bombs in such a way so as to make the building fall left and right, instead of straight down. Shoot, they could've made it even more interesting if they blew up on building and made it fall into the other. Now that would've had a huge impact! Why bring them straight down. Already killed 3000, might as well add to that number since they are all just so evil."

Anyway, during our discussion, I said something so amazingly scary that we both laughed, "This movie made Moore's movie much more enlightening and interesting!"  

Jordan .

For a long time now I've been fighting the good fight to put the kabosh on the supposed "Question Posing" of the 9/11 conspirators since it is not posing questions at all but a backhanded attack on Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc. Hate them all you like, but accusing these Americans of staging a phony terrorist attack on their own people is beyond the pale. David Lynch promotion of this documentary feels like more of the same. But he off-handedly suggests, "It poses interesting questions."

NO IT DOESN'T! It makes roundabout charges while pretending they are only innocent questions that have been nagging at oh so many patriotic Americans who were lied to with the 9/11 Commission Report. Few of these provacateurs have the balls to make the charges outright although they are obviously exculpating Al Qaeda by suggesting a Bush-PNACer Neo-Con plot. That alone I find despicable and typically limp, weak, and yellow-bellied.

There's nothing interesting about about such questions unless you are composing a fictional account of events, working backward from your distrust of the Bush administration and inflating meaningless details into large important points, all the while ignoring the larger FACTS and EVIDENCE, and then attempting to squish the whole concoction into the paranoid mold of a US government plot. A paranoid mold that becomes larger and more meaningless with each careless cut and paste. One which makes a search for the actual first hand reportage all the more difficult for having to weed through the forest of thorns on the conspiracy websites, most of which have the misleading term "truth" in their names. And a country with more and more Question Askers unable to think their way out of a paper bag for their complete depletion of critical thinking.

For the longest time I've tried to imagine how I would ACT were I of a mind to believe the convoluted illogic of the major 9/11 conspiracists -- the MIHOPs and their less committed cousins, the LIHOPS. Were I a MIHOP -- Made IT (9/11 attacks) Happen On Purpose -- I would not choose to remain in this country as a pawn in the evil game of their Military Industrial Complex! I would not go about my daily business. I would not simply be posting provacative websites that "ASK QUESTIONS...." I would not be making documentary films that "ASK QUESTIONS." I would not be hanging with my buds on Myspace.com yukking it up about how my film was going to change the world, man. "Sweet..."

I would have to do something more serious.

Why? Because...

...if I truly believed that George W. Bush and his Neo-Con PNACers planted bombs in the WTC in advance of sending in pod-packed jets without an Arab-Muslim on board...

...if I truly believed that there were bombs planted by my government in the WTC 7 (owned by the evil Larry Silverstein) collapse...

...if I truly believed that my government sent a guided missile into the Pentagon and somewhere in the netherworld exists the real aircraft the government claims smashed into the building...

...if I truly believed that the US government shot down Flight 93 and none of the telephone conversations with passengers saying Arab speaking hijackers had commandeered their plane had really happened...

...if I truly believed any of this, I would accuse myself of being the lowest down rot-bellied coward for continuing to go through my day-by-day existence in a country lorded over by leaders of such evil proportions that they certainly stand along side the historic likes of Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

But on the other hand, perhaps YOU who ASK QUESTIONS don't REALLY REALLY REALLY believe any of the suggestions that are proposed by a film such as young Dylan "just askin'" Avery's. Maybe you simply do just find these questions REALLY REALLY REALLY interesting...

I wonder.

I wonder if you would feel as comfortable passing judgement on your average criminal defendant as freely as you do by means of these scandalous attacks on the many Americans you infer are involved in this "heinous plot" to stage a fake attack on the United States. THIS IS NOT A PARLOR GAME!!! It's not a matter of a few stoned college students sitting around the dormitory asking, "Hey, wouldn't it be wild if there -- like -- weren't really any Muslims involved on 9/11?" "Wow." "You know, like in Parallex View how it was really the government involved in the assassination." "Man, I wouldn't put it past them..."

There comes a point where it is HUGELY IRRESPONSIBLE for adults -- adults who have influence, in particular -- to toss around these charges and pretend they are just "ASKING QUESTIONS." If you are only at the stage of just 'ASKING QUESTIONS" then why not keep it to yourself until you've exhausted your research into finding answers. You know. Kind of like is done in a criminal investigation where suspects aren't arrested until there is a complete investigation and charges are publicly filed. You know, the old "innocent until proven guilty" concept which prevails until a trial and verdict!

On a far smaller scale, this kind of character assassination, slander and libel is not unlike my walking up and down my street and chatting with each of my neighbors, just asking questions, you know. Asking questions like, "Why do you think Mr. Jones came home in a different car tonight and that is the same type of car John Gotti used to drive??? Hmmmmm." Or, "Why do you think Mrs. Jones had a plumber, an electrician, a roofer and a security systems truck in her driveway all in the same week?" "Why do you think she was wearing a halter top and shorts on those same days????" Or, "Why don't any of the Jones children look like their parents????" Or, "Why do you think the Joneses keep their drapes closed all through the daylight hours?" Hmmmmmm? Imagine the chaos of one jerk wreaking havoc on a neighborhood. Then magnify it to encompass the nation.

It is a grave and irresponsible action.

I'm not just asking questions. I'm making accusations against those who would lazily accept and perpetuate their desired mythology of "What Really Happened." And I think it's despicable, dangerous, and although it may be too late to save it, I don't want to go down with that ship -- The USS Lost Common Sense.

Susan

PS If this is an example of how his Holiness the Maharishi's special trademarked TM opens the mind to endless scientifc creativity and blissful intelligence, well, that and the Room to Dream video clip are enough to discredit the whole lot of it for me.  As if more evidence were necessary...

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Ohmygawd, talk about strange bedfellows!  Thought I'd check out a little more on Steven E Jones, the professor at BYU who wrote the scholarly paper on the "Controlled Demolition" of the WTC buildings.  Those of you prone to accept the Science of his report may want to check out the professor's home page where he discusses the folderol known as "Evolution" and explains why Darwin was wrong. 

Here's one random isolated quote, as is the customary fashion of presenting propoganda.  What's good for the goose...

My calling

I believe I have been called by the Lord Jesus Christ to this apologetic ministry and it is part of that ministry to debate this issue with evolutionists(non-theistic and theistic) in as firm but as loving a way as possible.

How to reconcile these things we so desperately WANT to BELIEVE...

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Yes, I saw that, CCC. Whaddaya gonna do. Sad. Could even move into the tragic realm.

And then there is the story by Tom Flocco, one of Loose Change's greatest advocates and fellow conspiracy wingnut, who announced the world last September that Barbara Olson is STILL ALIVE! Remember her? He says she was allegedly on Flight 77, "which the Bush administration says was crashed into the Pentagon." Snicker, snicker. The Bush administration made that wacky claim?!

Well, read and be enlightened on yet another of the 9/11 conspirators, Barbara Olson, and her arrest. How willfully ignorant does one have to be to listen to any of these intellectually challenged "sources" of information? I mean really, does anyone want to take the word of a man would compose the fiction below?

If so, be my guest but leave your gray matter at the door. Like the Maharishi, the words of the conspiracy theorists alone should be sufficient to declare them brain dead, so here's one to speak for himself. Allegedly.

Susan

9-11 crash victim Barbara Olson arrested in Europe

by Tom Flocco

Germany--September 22, 2005--TomFlocco.com--French and American intelligence agents have arrested Barbara Olson, the wife of a former Bush administration official, a few days ago on the Polish-German border, according to agents close to and with knowledge of the incident.

The alleged 9.11 Pentagon crash victim was found to be in possession of millions in fake InterBank Italian lira currency, according to the agents.

Olson was also reportedly in possession of a fraudulent Vatican passport and was held on charges of counterfeiting.

The former Fox News TV commentator and Independent Women's Forum activist was said to have called her husband Theodore Olson from her plane to seek help in countering hijackers who had allegedly taken over American flight 77 which the Bush administration said was crashed into the Pentagon- although the impact only left an opening approximately 16 feet across.

Ted Olson is the former Bush 43 Solicitor General who had previously argued the President's legal interests in the controversial Bush-Gore 2000 election recount case before the U.S. Supreme Court.

Mrs. Olson's alleged cell phone call to her husband was employed by the administration and the 9.11 Commission as partial proof that American 77 crashed into the Pentagon, despite physical evidence to the contrary.

The Pentagon crash evidence was ignored and obstructed by both the Commission and previously by the Joint Congressional Intelligence Committee in its own separate probe.

Due to the ongoing sensitive nature of the arrest, investigation and questioning, one source who declined to be named for this story, told TomFlocco.com that Olson's call to her husband was a fraud and that another projectile impacted the Pentagon other than Olson's plane.

The agents were said to have closed in to arrest the former television pundit because the evidence of counterfeiting and passport violations was obvious and that the timing was right.

According to the agents, Barbara Olson is reportedly considered to be a conspirator to the obstruction of justice in the mass murders of 3,000 individuals on September 11, 2001 in the attacks on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the alleged crash in southwestern Pennsylvania.

Olson's arrest and potential appearance at trial in the United States would undoubtedly have a profound impact upon current "Able Danger" hearings in the Senate and past probes by both the Joint Congressional Intelligence Committee and the 9.11 Commission.


[ We have changed the location of this report to the Polish-German border to correct the original phoned-in intelligence report we received. When we went back and questioned this location, We were given the Polish-German border as the correct location. The spelling of Olson’s name was corrected within 60 minutes after the story was posted. TF]

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Hello B.

It would be helpfull to review the passenger counts on the various flights over a period of time- perhaps a year or two to get a big picture. That would be to determine if the low passenger counts on the 9-11 morning were an anomoly or within the history for the flight's passenger stats over time.

I remember hearing back then(-sorry this is off the cuff B, I will research when I have some time for any links.) that the flights were chosen by the highjackers because they presented flights with low passenger loads and therefor less potential resistance to take overs. 

different subject.  quote "if you dont agree you dont have to post "      Man,  that is the most closed minded, snotty , fascist utterance to date. A high point in lowliness. 

 I keep hoping to hear a reason like this, but I never have.  Admittedly, I've never done any research on it myself, and only checked the exact number of fatalities and the plane capacities for the first time this week.

Still, I've never been on a flight where there was only one person for every six seats.  It's not like these were flights from Missoula to Minneapolis in February or anything.  Tuesday morning, the week after Labor Day.  Boston to LA.  Washington to LA.  Newark to San Francisco.  And there was the unnatural demand of 19 seats for the hijackers.  If a 17 percent load factor was typical for the Newark to SF route, no wonder United went bankrupt.

B this not a complete answer-and I'm not finished researching yet ! Just for starters:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/011001usatoday

... "Late last month, law enforcement officials said they believed that the hijackers or their associates did extensive scouting missions on various airline routes before settling on flights originating in Boston, Newark, N.J., and Washington.

Investigators said they believe that the hijackers selected the four flights they commandeered Sept. 11 because passenger loads generally were light and the fuel tanks on the jets, all on transcontinental routes, were full. ..."

I also found a table showing % full of the flights:  percentages of capacity 36,27,26,19 respectively- an overall average of 27 % of capacity.  I know this is just a start -it's not "OK case closed "B.  It requires more research. Just posted this as a start.   Later B.  Maybe there is a drop off after  a holiday weekend? Just thinking out loud.

Oh, CCC, you mean to tell me you actually BELIEVED that so called cockpit recording??? I know. Don't tell me. You probably believe that moon walk business too. "One giant step for mankind..." Get real. Don't you know with modern technology you can fake recordings like that? Didn't you see Wag the Dog when they, like, faked a war zone and stuff? You're hopelessly naive buying into the "Official Story" like the other Sheeple.

Zacarias Moussaoui = New Lee Harvey Oswald. Patsy city....

Susan

PS  But seriously, here is the 9-page transcript from the cockpit recording.  I advise printing it out and keeping it in a file to pull out when the True Believers come up with their make believe stories about What Really Happened that day.  It's hard to reconcile. Chilling stuff.

 http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0412061hijack1.html

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

First of all, I don't normally visit this forum. Second of all, I made an off-the-cuff remarks on the Last Film You Watched thread about how I had just watched some of this documentary. I didn't get to watch all of it, because my one friend became so infuriated that he couldn't finish watching (he had already watched it once before). I think this madness spread to me, but I am not in a position to offer an informed opinion about this film because I had been drinking all night and I was dozing off through the 45-50 minutes of it I had watched. It did make me question a few things, but not enough to move to Canada or do any extensive research, but I do plan on looking through this thread and checking out the links and examine both sides more carefully. I agree that the collage of quotes and the shaky timeline did take a lot of those "quotes" out of context. I did find it intriguing, the info about all the put options put on Boeing's and American Airlines stocks from 3 days prior to a day prior to the attacks. That is something I will look into on my own. Another thing I would like to look into is the structural stability of the WTC and how the building had collapsed so easily (I know somwe of this has been covered on this thread already the most succinctly of which was by Jordan). Just wanted to chime in here and clarify the conditions under which I watched some of this so-called documentary. Thanks. That is all for now.

"Every day holds a new beginning and every hour holds the promise of an Invitation to Love." 

Smokey, check out David Lynch's blog (open to non-members) and see some of the commentary over there if you still have any sense that the ex-waiter (who once served James Gandolfini) and his buddies who put this uh, documentary, together have presented a valid case for CONSPIRACY -- INSIDE JOB! 

I'll save my breath on the subject.  Or my fingertips.  I've said all I've got to say on that subject for the time being and it's all there to read with lots of agreement and disagreement to sort through.  It was fun.  The sad part is that Lynch's half-assed promotion of the uh, documentary, along with the Room to Dream and the Peace Palace Billions (still in the works) only lead me further to the conclusion that all is not well in the Hollywood Hills.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

What has the guy in question's previous job history got to do with anything? I worked in a bar to support myself through college, I don't see how that would lead someone to doubt my competence as an accountant. Character assasination is an easy way to devalue the strength of the argument that someone is making, but it only deviates from the issue and makes you look completely closed-minded.

Personally I will always keep an open mind as to what happened on that day as besides the people involved, nobody really knows and probably never will know the exact circumstances leading to such a dramatic series of events.

On one hand, Bin Laden was/is a CIA agent and the Bush-Bin laden dynasties have many political and business interests that have benefited from 9-11 and subsequent events. When something shady happens, you always look to who benefits. My own personal belief is that Al-Qaeda does not exist as the structured, top-down, trans-national terrorist organisation that it is portrayed as. It has been grossly overblown in people's minds in order to meet political ends.  

Though on the other hand, my gut feeling is that such a complex and  sinister operation could not even be imagined, planned and executed without some moral hero scuppering it. I just can't quite imagine somebody being so evil to dream up such a plan then being able to get the necessary people on board to carry it out. For example, can you imagine George W. saying to Condi Rice ' Hey wouldn't it be a good idea to murder 3000 of our own citizens in order to win public support for our plans in the middle east?' It doesn't seem plausible that a plan such as that could be carried out without somebody saying 'now hold on a minute.' I just can't reconcile a desire to do something like that with the available means to do so.

I'm gonna sit squarely on the fence.

Ah, LetsRoque, one has to be so durned careful when posting the slightest little bit of snark, doesn't one? Why? Because an innocuous statement like the, uh, director, of this uh, documentary, having been a waiter can be taken like a football and run into some fantasy goal post. That is NOT the main objection I've made to this lameass, convoluted, mess of a, uh, film. As I said, I'm not going to do an instant replay. There's a multitude of objections I made that dealt squarely with each and every uh, issue raised in that silly uh, documentary for anyone who chooses to read them.

I could care less what anyone did for a living! I was a waitress. I was a bartender. So bloody what? You do know that wasn't my point, don't you??? Tell me you do. Otherwise, I'm losing faith in all basic communication. Geez, that comment was the ONE you chose? Okay, I'm calming down now.

For anyone so gullible or so willfully able to forfeit all rudimentary logic to buy this bunkum, there's nothing I can add to dissuade any of them of them that this is unadultrated nonsense contained in this and other uh, films, and uh, blogs and uh, books on the subject. Some people are bound and determined to take themselves down this particular labrythine conspiracy spiral.

Bin Laden a CIA agent. That's precious!

Character assassination by calling Dylan a waiter? Get serious. Character assassination is included in the material that names a US Air Force pilot and claims he shot down flight 93. Character assassination is included in the likes of those who impugn masses of public servants from the FAA to the FBI to the CIA to the NSA as nameless faceless but real life individuals while twits like Dylan "may I take your order" Avery cuts and pastes a boatload of innuendo, rumor and lies to make a buck libeling people he'll never know. All the while leaving the real villains of the day off the hook. Mr. "No Muslims Involved in 9/11" Avery in a dream world of the collective invention of those who hate Bush to a dizzying distraction.

Phew!

Anyway, if that were the sole comment I'd ever made on the subject, there would be valid reasons to ignore my criticism. It's just that that's not the case.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Well, if the pot fits...

Yes, I do dismiss crackpots as crackpots, LetsRoque. If Dylan "would you like that with baked potato, rice pilaf or fries" Avery were here discussing the subject with us, with all of his finesse and fine etiquette, there's a good chance I'd rise to his level of discourse. I might politely suggest that the part of Loose Change where he ridicules the flight attendant who was heard to say, "I see buildings; I see water," since hahaha, that was a faked conversation was a bit dicey.  Kinda cruel.  Anyway, he's not here to join the fray. Putting his case out in the public marketplace opens him up for criticism so I want to make sure I get my two cents in.
And yes, I know my "style" is not appealing to everyone, but what can I do? If you had any idea how hard I try to be um delicate! Try to imagine me with a hint of a smile on my face when you read what I write and maybe it'll be less repulsive. Don't forget, I'm quite capable of doing a 180 opinion shift if offered a good argument.

I am still smiling.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I actually watched the whole Loose Change movie... I love conspiracies!

Was I convinced about bombs inside the WTC or that a missile/smaller aircraft was fired into the Pentagon? Nah!

Way too impausible (for me) no matter how far you allow your sense of disbelief to be suspended.

Is there a whole industry dedicated to selling conspiracy books, movies, stories etc. all related to 9/11? Yes!

Will this continue ad infinitum? Yes!

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Quote - 'Try to imagine me with a hint of a smile on my face when you read what I write and maybe it'll be less repulsive'

Ok I probably jumped to that comment too easily. I have a habit of taking things too seriously at times!

Quote - 'Don't forget, I'm quite capable of doing a 180 opinion shift if offered a good argument.'

Flip Flopper. George W would have you for breakfast.

Quote - 'If it weren't for my swipe at waiters, maybe it would have all been okay, huh? '

Personally, I'm still on the fence. Though if I was in danger of falling off I would probably fall on the side of rejecting the 'inside job' theory. But I think we still don't know anything like the full story of the events leading up to, and on 9/11. I reckon that people in high office know alot more than they are letting on.

Whatever the truth, my feelings of despair still haven't waned in 5yrs. That day blew my mind for all the wrong reasons. 'Mans inhumanity to man' and all that. Still shocks me.

Since I know your name is Susan I'll type my real name at the bottom of every post from now on, it'll save you having to type my user-name each time we come into confrontation (which seems to be a frequent occurance!)

------------------------------------

James

Don't worry, James this is how great friendships start at the TPG!

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Okay, James, Ray, Erwin, "JAZZ," Jordan, Rich and all the rest of you real people out there, get ready for a fresh new crop of conspiracy theories to begin to later today when the Department of Defense releases the videotape of American Airlines Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. It will be shown at 1:00 pm Eastern Time (I believe) today at the Judicial Watch website. They had filed a Freedom of Information request and were successful.

I await the imaginary tales of the same cinematographer and production designer who arranged for the so-called "Moon Walk" having had 5 years to generate this (HAHAHA) video of the "alleged" plane striking the Pentagon. I understand there's some disturbing imagery of the wings going back and to the left before the fuselage is embedded and then vaporized within that too small hole in the wall.

www.judicialwatch.org

http://www.judicialwatch.org/5772.shtml

Judicial Watch's mission statement includes the word "fighting." It also contains the word "non-partisan." But seriously, don't we all know which political party has a propensity to stress its FIGHTING ways?

As in "I'll FIGHT for you!"

Judicial Watch is a non-partisan, educational foundation organized under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue code. Judicial Watch is dedicated to fighting government and judicial corruption and promoting a return to ethics and morality in our nation's public life.

Susan

 PS  Nearly one hour later, the site is too clogged up to access.  Maybe later...

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Did bush or al-qaeda take the server down? Discuss...

so 5 years to release the film? Now I know where David Lynch learnt his lesson on creating mass anticipation  Maybe we'll need a freedom of information act in order to view Inland Empire!

I was on the fence, Susan pulled me over to her side slightly, a friend of mine emailed this to me today, and now i'm dizzy... apologies in advance for the size of it

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That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.

That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank, BCCI, Banco Ambrosiano, the P2 Lodge, the CIA/Mafia anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that. That was then, this is now! 

That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a US-record $25 million must embarrass his nephew George, but it's still no justification for leaping to paranoid conclusions.

That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just one of those things - one of those crazy things.

That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is.

That al Qaeda was active in the Balkan conflict, fighting on the same side as the US as recently as 1999, while the US protected its cells, is merely one of history's little aberrations.

The claims of Michael Springman, State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas to al Qaeda members so they could receive training in the United States, sound like the sour grapes of someone who was fired for making such wild accusations.

That one of George Bush's first acts as President, in January 2001, was to end the two-year deployment of attack submarines which were positioned within striking distance of al Qaeda's Afghanistan camps, even as the group's guilt for the Cole bombing was established, proves that a transition from one administration to the next is never an easy task.

That so many influential figures in and close to the Bush White House had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place at the right time.

That the company PTECH, founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 9/11 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.

That whistleblower Indira Singh was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that "that person should be killed," suggests he should take an anger management seminar.

That on May 8, 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications for America's military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

That the standing order which covered the shooting down of hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, as the order was rescinded shortly after 9/11.

That in the weeks before 9/11, FBI agent Colleen Rowley found her investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui so perversely thwarted that her colleagues joked that bin Laden had a mole at the FBI, proves the stress-relieving virtue of humour in the workplace.

That Dave Frasca of the FBI’s Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear on the surface odd, but undoubtedly there's a good reason for it, quite possibly classified.

That FBI informant Randy Glass, working an undercover sting, was told by Pakistani intelligence operatives that the World Trade Center towers were coming down, and that his repeated warnings which continued until weeks before the attacks, including the mention of planes used as weapons, were ignored by federal authorities, is simply one of the many "What Ifs" of that tragic day.

That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings from foreign intelligence agencies and governments - including those of Germany, France, Great Britain, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Morocco, Afghanistan and others - of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.

That John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial aircraft in July 2001 on account of security considerations had nothing to do with warnings regarding September 11, because he said so to the 9/11 Commission.

That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says he’d taken to John Ashcroft’s office specific warnings he’d learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack – even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets – and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schipper’s pathetic need for attention.

That Garth Nicolson received two warnings from contacts in the intelligence community and one from a North African head of state, which included specific site, date and source of the attacks, and passed the information to the Defense Department and the National Security Council to evidently no effect, clearly amounts to nothing, since virtually nobody has ever heard of him.

That in the months prior to September 11, self-described US intelligence operative Delmart Vreeland sought, from a Toronto jail cell, to get US and Canadian authorities to heed his warning of his accidental discovery of impending catastrophic attacks is worthless, since Vreeland was a dubious character, notwithstanding the fact that many of his claims have since been proven true.

That FBI Special Investigator Robert Wright claims that agents assigned to intelligence operations actually protect terrorists from investigation and prosecution, that the FBI shut down his probe into terrorist training camps, and that he was removed from a money-laundering case that had a direct link to terrorism, sounds like yet more sour grapes from a disgruntled employee.

That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 9/11 demonstrates only the value of being prepared.

The suggestion that securing a pipeline across Afghanistan figured into the White House’s calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.

That Afghanistan is once again the world’s principal heroin producer is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith on the part of the agency.

Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan’s ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11, because I didn’t read anything about him in the official report.

That Porter Goss met with Ahmed the morning of September 11 in his capacity as Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has no bearing whatsoever upon his recent selection by the White House to head the Central Intelligence Agency.

That Goss's congressional seat encompasses the 9/11 hijackers' Florida base of operation, including their flight schools, is precisely the kind of meaningless factoid a conspiracy theorist would bring up.

It's true that George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 alone in the Oval Office, but what's wrong with old colleagues catching up? And it's true that George HW Bush and Shafig bin Laden, Osama's brother, spent the morning of September 11 together at a board meeting of the Carlyle Group, but the bin Ladens are a big family.

That FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill, and had a triage centre ready to go that was larger and better equipped than the one that was lost in the collapse of WTC 7, was a lucky twist of fate.

Newsweek’s report that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.

That George Bush's telephone logs for September 11 do not exist should surprise no one, given the confusion of the day.

That Mohamed Atta attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows it is a small world, after all.

That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi's terms, was disciplined, removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is...contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.

That Mohammed Atta dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.

That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Atta’s flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled – the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida – was just bad luck. That Hilliard was not charged shows how specious the claims for conspiracy truly are.

That Hilliard’s plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal, and that 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal’s attorney before Seal’s murder, shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions.

Reports of insider trading on 9/11 are false, because the SEC investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so the windfall profit-taking was merely, as ever, coincidental.

That heightened security for the World Trade Centre was lifted immediately prior to the attacks illustrates that it always happens when you least expect it.

That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.

That none of the flight data recorders were said to be recoverable even though they were located in the tail sections, and that until 9/11, no solid-state recorder in a catastrophic crash had been unrecoverable, shows how there's a first time for everything.

That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, a Koran, his driver's license and a "how to fly planes" video in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

The mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, of an Israeli espionage ring surveiling DEA and defense installations and trailing the hijackers, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, does not deserve a response. That the stories also appeared in publications such as Ha'aretz and Forward is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Israeli media.

That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 9/11 – one simulating the crash of a plane into a building; another, a live-fly simulation of multiple hijackings – and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a bizarre coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a rookie substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.

That a recording made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers’ describing what they had witnessed, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is something no doubt that overzealous official wishes he could undo.

That the FBI knew precisely which Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American feel safer knowing their federal agents are on the ball.

That a former flight school executive believes the hijackers were "double agents," and says about Atta and associates, "Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose," and was visited by the FBI just four hours after the attacks to intimidate him into silence, proves he's an unreliable witness, for the simple reason there is no conspiracy.

That Jeb Bush was on board an aircraft that removed flight school records to Washington in the middle of the night on Sept 12th demonstrates how seriously the governor takes the issue of national security.

To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

Le Figaro’s report in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that the CIA met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.

That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama, and Osama alone, masterminded 9/11.

That at the battle of Tora Bora, where bin Laden was surrounded on three sides, Special Forces received no order to advance and capture him and were forced to stand and watch as two Russian-made helicopters flew into the area where bin Laden was believed hiding, loaded up passengers and returned to Pakistan, demonstrates how confusing the modern battlefield can be.

That upon returning to Fort Bragg from Tora Bora, the same Special Operations troops who had been stood down from capturing bin Laden, suffered a unusual spree of murder/suicides, is nothing more than a series of senseless tragedies.

Reports that bin Laden is currently receiving periodic dialysis treatment in a Pakistani medical hospital are simply too incredible to be true.

That the White House went on Cipro September 11 shows the foresightedness of America’s emergency response.

That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.

That the anthrax attacks appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act shows only that appearances can be deceiving.

That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick, and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories.

That Republican guru Grover Norquist has been found to have aided financiers and supporters of Islamic terror to gain access to the Bush White House, and is a founder of the Islamic Institute, which the Treasury Department believes to be a source of funding for al Qaeda, suggests Norquist is at worst, naive, and at best, needs a wider circle of friends.

That the Department of Justice consistently chooses to see accused 9/11 plotters go free rather than permit the courtroom testimony of al Qaeda leaders in American custody looks bad, but only because we don't have all the facts.

That the White House balked at any inquiry into the events of 9/11, then starved it of funds and stonewalled it, was unfortunate, but since the commission didn't find for conspiracy it's all a non issue anyway.

That the 9/11 commission's executive director and "gatekeeper," Philip Zelikow, was so closely involved in the events under investigation that he testified before the the commission as part of the inquiry, shows only an apparent conflict of interest.

That commission chair Thomas Kean is, like George Bush, a Texas oil executive who had business dealings with reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mafouz, suggests Texas is smaller than they say it is.

That co-chair Lee Hamilton has a history as a Bush family "fixer," including clearing Bush Sr of the claims arising from the 1980 "October Surprise", is of no concern, since only conspiracists believe there was such a thing as an October Surprise.

That FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds accuses the agency of intentionally fudging specific pre-9/11 warnings and harboring a foreign espionage ring in its translation department, and claims she witnessed evidence of the semi-official infrastructure of money-laundering and narcotics trade behind the attacks, is of no account, since John Ashcroft has gagged her with the rare invocation of "State Secrets Privilege," and retroactively classified her public testimony. For the sake of national security, let us speak no more of her.

That, when commenting on Edmond's case, Daniel Ellsberg remarked that Ashcroft could go to prison for his part in a cover-up, suggests Ellsberg is giving comfort to the terrorists, and could, if he doesn't wise up, find himself declared an enemy combatant.

I could go on. And on and on. But I trust you get the point. Which is simply this: there are no secrets, an American government would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.

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