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| 1. Thursday, May 4, 2006 4:10 PM |
| wowBOBwow |
Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst
By SHANNON McCAFFREY, Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA - Protesters repeatedly interrupted Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld during a speech Thursday and one man, a former CIA analyst, accused him of lying about Iraq prewar intelligence in an unusually vociferous display of anti-war sentiment.
"Why did you lie to get us into a war that caused these kind of casualties and was not necessary?" asked Ray McGovern, the former analyst, during a question-and-answer session.
"I did not lie," shot back Rumsfeld, who waved off security guards ready to remove McGovern from the hall at the Southern Center for International Studies.
With Iraq war support remaining low, it is not unusual for top Bush administration officials to encounter protests and hostile questions. But the outbursts Rumsfeld confronted on Thursday seemed beyond the usual.
Three protesters were escorted away by security as each interrupted Rumsfeld's speech by jumping up and shouting anti-war messages. Throughout the speech, a fourth protester stood in the middle of the room with his back to Rumsfeld in silent protest. Officials reported no arrests.
Rumsfeld also faced tough questions from a woman identifying herself as Patricia Roberts of Lithonia, Ga., who said her son, 22-year-old Spc. Jamaal Addison, was killed in Iraq. Roberts said she is now raising her young grandson and asked whether the government could provide any help.
Rumsfeld referred her to a Web site listing aid organizations.
President Bush seldom faces such challenges. Demonstrators usually are kept far from him when he delivers public remarks.
Rumsfeld has been interrupted by anti-war demonstrators in congressional hearing rooms as he has delivered testimony to lawmakers in recent months, and at some speeches around the country.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has had direct confrontations overseas. These include demonstrators who called her a murderer and war criminal in Australia in March, and throngs of anti-war protesters who dogged her every move in northern England in April.
Demonstrators were kept far away from Rice during a visit last week to Greece, where riot police confronted a violent street mob that smashed shop windows in protest of U.S. policies and Rice's role in the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
More than half of Americans say the war in Iraq was not worth the cost financially or in loss of life, recent public polling has found. Just over one-third of those surveyed say they approve of Bush's handing of the war. Public sentiment about the war has been at those low levels since fall.
Just over one-third of the public says Rumsfeld is doing an excellent or pretty good job, according to polling in March, while six in 10 said fair or poor.
In the run-up to the March 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration repeatedly spoke of evidence that Saddam Hussein had acquired weapons of mass destruction. No such armaments have been found. Officials also spoke about connections between Saddam and al-Qaida that critics say remain unproven.
In recent weeks, at least a half dozen retired generals have called for Rumsfeld's resignation, saying he has ignored advice offered by military officers and made strategic errors in the Iraq war, including committing too few troops. But he has received strong backing by Bush, who repeatedly has indicated he will keep Rumsfeld at the Pentagon.
When security guards tried removing McGovern, the analyst, during his persistent questions of Rumsfeld, the defense secretary told them to let him stay. The two continued to spar.
"You're getting plenty of play," Rumsfeld told McGovern, who is an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq.
Responding to another protester who also accused Rumsfeld of lying, the secretary said such accusations are "so wrong, so unfair and so destructive."
At one point, Rumsfeld was praised by an audience member who said he had followed Rumsfeld's career and wondered what in his upbringing had shaped his positive outlook on life.
"I guess one thing I'd say is that my mom was a school teacher and my dad read history voraciously. And I guess I adopted some of those patterns of reading history," Rumsfeld replied.
Rumsfeld focused his speech on a U.S. need to increase its emphasis on more flexible partnerships with foreign militaries and rethinking of the role of long-established alliances like NATO.
He called such changes "necessary adjustments, based on the new realities and the new threats that have emerged since the end of the Cold War."
He also said, "We need ways to make sure we're better understood in the world than we are."
Rumsfeld also likened the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan to the Cold War.
"There is no question our country is facing difficulties in Iraq and difficulties in Afghanistan," he said
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I appluad Ray McGovern for having the stones to put Rumsfeld on the spot. He lied then, and he is lying now. Check out the differences between the ambiguity Rumsfeld tries to shroud his previous statements in with the absolute certainty of those statements in their actuality.
March 30th, 2003
An exerpt from the Rumsfeld interview with George Stephanopoulos on ABC's "This Week":
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction?
SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
May 28th, 2003
Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
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| 2. Thursday, May 4, 2006 4:26 PM |
| wowBOBwow |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Sorry for the double post, but here is an exerpt from the transcript of the exchange between Rumsfeld and McGovern during this speech that indisputably proves that Rumsfeld is a liar and that McGovern had every right to call him on it, when compared with Rumsfeld's documented statements in my previous post. It is short but sweet:
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.
RAY MCGOVERN, CIA VETERAN: You said you knew where they were.
RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were, and we were just...
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were, "near Tikrit, near Baghdad, and northeast, south and west of there." Those are your words.
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| 3. Thursday, May 4, 2006 4:47 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Dave, I found the tone of the article you posted to be a little bit disturbing. I understand that the war has hurt us and we want to bring the guilty to justice, as we should and will continue to do, but we have to be careful that we don't start targeting people more on the basis of their alleged or known affiliations than apon their actual actions. Being in some way affiliated with a group that commits a heinous act does not automatically make you a criminal, and we need to keep this fact in mind. Lying is bad and should be vigorously opposed, but we can't let our desire for vengeance cloud our judgement on what is fair and just from a legal standpoint. When it comes to matters of law, it is best to check your emotions at the door, IMHO. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 4. Friday, May 5, 2006 9:00 AM |
| wowBOBwow |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Susan, you're hilarious. Thanks for that.
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| 5. Friday, May 5, 2006 9:45 AM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Funniest Housewife in Tarzana!
That's what my husband tells me, anyway.  Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 6. Friday, May 5, 2006 11:08 AM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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This little article is from last year and sheds some light on Ray McGovern. Remember this clever bit of perfromance art orchestrated by the always ethical John Conyers? Cindy Sheehan was there. Maxine Waters too. Hmmm, seems like I've heard this theory SOMEWHERE before. Oh yeah. It was from the hostile Arab press with their singleminded obsession on Israel and the Jews. Well, anyway, what a gutsy guy to take on the Powers That Be in Washington and their Puppet Masters in Israel by courageously heckling away at Rumsfeld, that lying liar. ¡Muchos huevos grandes!
friday, june 17, 2005 In the Capitol basement yesterday, long-suffering House Democrats took a trip to the land of make-believe. They pretended a small conference room was the Judiciary Committee hearing room, draping white linens over folding tables to make them look like witness tables and bringing in cardboard name tags and extra flags to make the whole thing look official. The session took an awkward turn when witness Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, declared that the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel and military bases craved by administration “neocons” so “the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world.” He said that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. “Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation,” McGovern said. “The last time I did this, the previous director of Central Intelligence called me anti-Semitic.” Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.), who prompted the question by wondering whether the true war motive was Iraq’s threat to Israel, thanked McGovern for his “candid answer.” At Democratic headquarters, where an overflow crowd watched the hearing on television, activists handed out documents repeating two accusations — that an Israeli company had warning of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and that there was an “insider trading scam” on 9/11 — that previously has been used to suggest Israel was behind the attacks. The event organizer, Democrats.com, distributed stickers saying “Bush lied/100,000 people died.” One man’s T-shirt proclaimed, “Whether you like Bush or not, he’s still an incompetent liar,” while a large poster of Uncle Sam announced: “Got kids? I want yours for cannon fodder.” Conyers’s firm hand on the gavel could not prevent something of a free-for-all; at one point, a former State Department worker rose from the audience to propose criminal charges against Bush officials. Early in the hearing, somebody accidentally turned off the lights; later, a witness knocked down a flag. Matters were even worse at Democratic headquarters, where the C-SPAN feed ended after just an hour, causing the activists to groan and one to shout “Conspiracy!”
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 7. Friday, May 5, 2006 11:59 AM |
| wowBOBwow |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Casting vague apsersions upon the character of Ray McGovern does nothing to change the fact that Rumsfeld lies and denies his own words with a straight face, in front of a large crowd of people, no less. McGovern quoted Rumsfeld's own words to him verbatim, which Rumsfeld denied. McGovern's character does not factor in, and if this is all you can find to smear him with, then he looks pretty clean to me, in any case.
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| 8. Friday, May 5, 2006 2:34 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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QUOTE:Casting vague apsersions upon the character of Ray McGovern... McGovern's character does not factor in, and if this is all you can find to smear him with, then he looks pretty clean to me, in any case. |
Only using his own quite specific words, Dave. And I haven't made an effort to "smear" him, but that basement mock impeachment show put on by the honorable John Conyers was the one recollection I had of McGovern, so I backtracked and found a WaPo article to share.
It's not that unusual to have this anti-Israeli view of the war in Iraq. It isn't even necessarily casting a "vague aspersion" on his character. But it does indicate that he was not simply a Former CIA Analyst Former Friend of Rummy who just jumped ship and came to his senses after having previously been on board the Good Ship Dubya. There is another ex-CIA turned author "Anonymous" who holds that same view. I strongly disagree with it. They are not secret about it. They would not view it as a vague aspersion. BUT... Many of these same folks who claim the War in Iraq is "for Israel" hasten to add that they are not anti-Semitic; only anti-Zionism. I suppose that could be taken at face value, but following the thread of logic to its terminus, anti-Zionism seems to me the next best thing to anti-Semitism. Zionism means the existence of a Jewish state -- Israel -- which requires having Jews living there. Since the scant 5 million or so Jews who live in the minute nation of Israel are close to one-half the entire population of Jews in the world, well, being against Israel's existence equals opposition to a significant proportion of Jews. No Israel would necessitate yet another diaspora if the "anti-Zionists" were to have their way. So using convoluted reasoning to say that the Iraqi War is a war for Israel, requires a leap of logic I dispute, even if Ray McGovern, John Conyers and Cindy "Mother" Sheehan find it persuasive. For me, that aspect of their world view is worthy of derision. But if others believe that Israel does not have the right to exist, "that's well, like, uh... their opinion" as CCC and I like to say.
Now, as for the Rumsfeld LIE. In front of a large crowd. No less... You either believe Rumsfeld made the WMD-Tikrit-Baghdad statement on national TV and... A. He KNEW that was NOT TRUE. OR B. He BELIEVED it to be TRUE, but it was LATER found to be NOT TRUE. If your belief is A, I agree. That qualifies as a LIE. But your belief is B, that is NOT a LIE. But let's assume you have chosen A. and we agree that such words would truly qualify as a LIE. Rumsfeld KNEW full well there were no WMD around Tikrit and Baghdad...
WHY WOULD HE SET HIMSELF UP FOR THE FOLLOW-UP REVEAL ONCE THE US OCCUPIED IRAQ? Did he think no one would notice? Did he think no one would care? I cannot accept either possibility. It is ludicrous to assume that Rumsfeld, Bush, etal. could pull off such a specific deceit and that no one would notice or care. Continuing, let's say Rumsfeld KNEW he was telling Stephanopoulus a flat out LIE. That's your assumption, right? Knowing full well that there were NO WMD were around Tikrit and Baghdad. WHY THEN WOULDN'T THEY HAVE PLANTED SOME WMD AROUND TIKRIT AND BAGHDAD???
Surely, if he would LIE about WMD... ...and he would LIE about where those imaginary WMD were located... ...he would also LIE about the subsequent "discovery" of the WMD around Tikrit and Baghdad. Surely if the goal was to convince the world of the "Dangers of Iraq" these same LIARS would have no qualms about falsely implicating that country by having arranged for at least one Iraqi hijacker on September 11. One stinking Iraqi passport! One lousy Iraqi Visa on one stinkin' Saudi passport even. But NO! They screwed up big time.
So then I think to myself, hmmm, maybe it's simply the case that there are limits to Rumsfeld's EVIL LYING ways although I would strongly doubt it. If one wants to accept the larger implication behind the hyena heckling of "LIAR-LIAR-LIAR" it would follow that the US Secretary of Defense cared more about making certain he led the US into a war even though he KNEW there was no threat from Iraq. This would tell me that he'd have no additional scruples when it comes to LYING about "finding" WMD.
Since you are starting to gain an appreciation of George Friedman, Dave, you may want to check out what he thinks about the lead up to the Iraq War. Guess who else was fully convinced that Saddam Hussein had WMD? Yup. Friedman, the "private CIA" operative with his intelligence sources in 70 key strategic countries that he claims give him superior intelligence to that of the too large, too bureaucratic CIA.
If you are bound and determined to hold onto The LYING Game theory, so be it. It just seems to me so arbitrary, so meaningless and so easily disputable. Certainly if you want to find fault with Bush, Rumsfeld or any of the rest of them, there are far better reasons to dredge up beyond the old LIAR-LIAR saw. I hate to keep harping on the dearly departed Johnny Cochran, but he was right to say "If it doesn't fit..." Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 9. Friday, May 5, 2006 2:54 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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More vague aspersions against McGovern. Or endearing qualities, depending on one's personal outlook. Interesting to find Howard Dean leaning in my direction on McGovern.
Susan JUNE 18, 2005 WASHINGTON - A handful of people at Democratic National Headquarters distributed material critical of Israel during a public forum questioning the Bush administration’s Iraq policy, drawing an angry response and charges of anti-Semitism from party chairman Howard Dean on Friday.
“We disavow the anti-Semitic literature, and the Democratic National Committee stands in absolute disagreement with and condemns the allegations,” Dean said in a statement posted on the DNC Web site. ...
Conyers’ event occurred in a small Capitol meeting room, and an overflow crowd watched witnesses on television in a conference room at DNC headquarters. According to Dean, some material distributed within the DNC conference room implied that Israel was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
One witness, former intelligence analyst Ray McGovern, told Conyers and other House Democrats that the war was part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to “dominate that part of the world,” a statement Dean also condemned.
“As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could ‘dominate’ the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric,” Dean said.
“The inferences are destructive and counterproductive, and have taken away from the true purpose of the Judiciary Committee members’ meeting,” he said. “The entire Democratic Party remains committed to fighting against such bigotry.”
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 10. Friday, May 5, 2006 3:33 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Slap me if I'm overstepping my bounds, here, but this is too easy. I swear this will be the last of my assassination of the fine character of Ray McGovern. He has been fun to read about. Very interesting is his behind-the-scenes activities in "leaking" stories to the NY Times, etc., his connections to Mary McCarthy, media darling of last week, and his willingness to break the law to get out the TRUTH. I tell you every time I hear an organization that makes big claims about truth, I worry I'll be getting something far from it. His credibility seems in question all the more so since his claims that the US would plant WMD never happened, nor did his other claim that Bush would suspend the election of 2004 due to a "real or staged terrorist attack." Wrong and wrong again. I guess my favorite part and one I'm sure Dave will find reprehensible is his urging of others to "out CIA agents." When both John Conyers (!) AND Howard Dean are denouncing you, you know you're off the charts into wingnut land.
Susan Questionable "Intelligence" By Jacob Laksin FrontPageMagazine.com | June 30, 2005
There are some criticisms of the Bush administration even Howard Dean declines to endorse. A rare example of the form was uttered on June 16 by Ray McGovern, an ex-CIA analyst who since his 1990 retirement from the agency has served as a full-time foot soldier in the army of antiwar left.
The occasion was a mock hearing of the Judiciary Committee. Set up by one of the Iraq war’s most strident detractors, Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-MI, as a publicity-grabbing protest against the war, the stunt quickly backfired when McGovern, in his own distinctive fashion, laid out his objections to Operation Iraqi Freedom. In McGovern’s view, the sinister motivations for the war could be explained by the axiom O.I.L.: “O for Oil, I for Israel, and L for leveraging our land bases.”
Israel in particular concentrated his interest. Intolerant of the notion that Israel could be seen as America’s ally, McGovern contended that by toppling Saddam Hussein, the Bush administration was merely doing the dirty work of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. As evidence, McGovern was not above retailing anti-Israel conspiracy theories. Hence he claimed, inter alia, that an Israeli company had advanced warning of the 9/11 attacks—an accusation echoed in literature passed out by Democratic activists at the hearing. No immediate objections were raised, but McGovern’s conspiratorial musing did earn him the praise of at least one attendee, the notoriously anti-Semitic Rep. James P. Moran Jr., D-VA, who praised the former CIA man for his “candid” remarks. McGovern, for his part, sought to cast himself as a lone voice for sanity in an American political culture blind to the evils of the Middle East’s lone democratic country. “Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation,” he complained.
A similar attitude animates the group that McGovern founded in the lead-up to the Iraq war, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS). Its comically exaggerated claims to the status of a “movement” quite apart, VIPS is a marginal antiwar group of 35 retired and resigned intelligence has-beens. Between 2003 and 2005, VIPS fired off some eleven open letters—presumptuously addressed to President Bush and other administration higher-ups—assailing, with varying degrees of sobriety, the administration’s case for war.
There was one recurring theme: the allegedly manipulative influence of Israel on American foreign policy. Thus, in a February 2003 letter, published on the left-wing website Common Dreams, VIPS made the case that the issues surrounding the war “are far more far-reaching-and complicated-than ‘UN v. Saddam Hussein.’” The more “complicated” explanation favored by VIPS was that all the turmoil of the Middle East—from terrorism generally to the intransigence of Saddam Hussein specifically—could be pinned squarely on Israel. Affecting to speak to President Bush, the VIPS letter stated:
It is widely known that you have a uniquely close relationship with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. This presents a strong disincentive to those who might otherwise warn you that Israel's continuing encroachment on Arab territories, its oppression of the Palestinian people, and its pre-emptive attack on Iraq in 1981 are among the root causes not only of terrorism, but of Saddam Hussein's felt need to develop the means to deter further Israeli attacks.
This line of argument resounded with several VIPS members, among them the husband and wife team of Kathleen and William Christison. Former CIA analysts, the Christinson’s (who’ve since parted ways with VIPS) unsuccessfully attempted to travel to Iraq prior to the war to voice their opposition to “a new colonialism in the [Middle East], dominated by…the U.S. and Israel.”
But the most enthusiastic advocate of anti-Israel conspiracies was Ray McGovern. In a letter to the Christian Science Monitor just days after the 9-11 attacks, McGovern berated Americans for failing to “understand why so many of [the Middle East’s] people are willing to commit terrorist acts against the US,” and called for a “US approach that is less biased toward our Israeli friends.” And he was just getting started. “The war on Iraq was just as much prompted by the strategic objectives of the state of Israel as it was the strategic objectives of the United States,” he explained in an interview with the left-wing Sojourners magazine, ominously expressing his amazement at the “confluence of objectives” between American and Israeli policy makers. Writing in January 2003 in the Miami Herald, McGovern claimed that Israeli officials were “egging Bush on” to levy war against Iraq—all part of their master plan to strengthen their “ability to work their will in the lands seized from the Arabs in 1967 and 1973.” On yet another occasion, McGovern wondered: “Why is it that the state of Israel has such pervasive influence over our body politic?”
That Israel pulls the strings of American foreign policy is not the only conspiracy theory propounded by McGovern. While maintaining that the Bush administration manipulated intelligence information to justify the war against Iraq, McGovern has allowed for the possibility that WMD may be found in Iraq. But he hastens to add that any weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq will likely have been “planted” by American forces. “Some of my colleagues are virtually certain that there will be some weapons of mass destruction found, even though they might have to be planted,” he told Agence French Presse in April of 2003, darkly insisting that “that would justify the charge of a threat against the U.S. or anyone else.” McGovern dusted off the same claim for a June 2003 interview with the left-wing site Truthout.org. Granting the implausibility of that his assertion “that the US wants to be able to plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq,” he nonetheless proceeded to justify it in the following manner:
Now, most people will say, ‘Come on, McGovern. How are you going to get a SCUD in there without everyone seeing it?’ It doesn’t have to be a SCUD. It can be the kind of little vile vial that Colin Powell held up on the 5th of February. You put a couple of those in a GI’s pocket, and you swear him to secrecy, and you have him go bury them out in the desert. You discover it ten days later, and President Bush, with more credibility than he could with those trailers will say, ‘Ha! We’ve found the weapons of mass destruction.’ I think that’s a possibility, a real possibility.
Yet another tack taken by McGovern and VIPS in their campaign to discredit the Iraq war was exhorting intelligence personnel to leak classified information. This was the subject of a March 2003 VIPS memorandum, which urged CIA employees to break the law by releasing any information that might lend authority to antiwar activists’ assertions that the administration was doctoring intelligence to justify the war against Iraq. In defense of this position, McGovern insisted that it was necessary to counterbalance the administration’s “cooked” intelligence—a matter on which, as a CIA spokesman pointed out, the retired McGovern, whose 27-years in the CIA were spent studying Soviet foreign policy, was hardly an expert. (Against this, McGovern has taken to offering a less than persuasive rebuttal. With the internet at his disposal, McGovern explained to Mother Jones in March of 2004, he is as informed as any intelligence operative poring over secret transcripts: “With the incredible amount of information available on the Internet, I can by ten o'clock in the morning, be morally certain that I have 80 to 90 percent of the information that's available on a given subject.”)
McGovern was still making overtures to would-be whistleblowers in September of 2004, now as a member of the “Truth-Telling Coalition Appeal,” a new antiwar group that included Daniel Ellsberg, the Rand analyst who leaked the Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam War. An open letter issued by the group, and signed by McGovern, demanded that CIA analysts leak communications intelligence and nuclear data, and, perhaps more actionably, urged them to disclose the identity of US intelligence operatives. While acknowledging that it was calling on them to commit a crime, the letter explained that nothing short of outright lawbreaking was adequate to counter an “administration [that] has stretched existing criminal laws to cover other disclosures in ways never contemplated by Congress.”
Pronouncements such as these have made McGovern a darling of the antiwar media and a reliable ally of antiwar politicians. It hasn’t diminished McGovern’s appeal to the antiwar left that he enjoys a reputation as a disaffected political conservative—a reputation assiduously cultivated by McGovern himself. Now a regular on the lecture circuit, McGovern seldom neglects to flash his credentials as a former CIA briefer of the first President Bush. He has even suggested, implausibly, that he has the former president’s ear. For instance, during a September 2003 appearance on far-left radio program Democracy Now, McGovern insinuated that the former president referred to the architects of the second Iraq war as “the crazies.” Pressed by host Amy Goodman whether these were really the former president’s views, McGovern beat a hasty retreat, sputtering about a “certain delicacy” that he suddenly felt compelled to respect.
Nor have his supposedly conservative inclinations prevented McGovern from peddling his flagrantly conspiratorial views and inciting intelligence analysts to criminality for the benefit of college audiences. Far from atypical was a September 2004 appearance at the University of South Florida, whereat he speculated that the Bush administration might engineer a pre-election terrorist attack on American soil so as not to cede power: “There might be a real or staged terrorist attack in order to postpone the elections,” McGovern said. McGovern did not fail to invoke his favorite acronym: “O is for oil, I is for Israel and L is for logistics, as in when we have Iraq we have a foothold and a number of bases strategically placed in the Middle East so we can be in control over there and also to protect Israel.”
It is precisely those views that antiwar Democrats from Howard Dean to John Conyers rushed to condemn in the aftermath of last week’s faux hearing. Conyers professed to be especially outraged: “I do not agree with, support, or condone any comments asserting Israeli control over U.S. policy, and I find any allegation that Israel is trying to dominate the world or had anything to do with the September 11 tragedy disgusting and offensive,” he wrote in a fuming letter to the Washington Post. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Conyers did not address the more relevant question: Why, given McGovern’s grotesque rhetorical record, had Democrats invited him in the first place?
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 11. Friday, May 5, 2006 3:37 PM |
| wowBOBwow |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Wow Susan, I can't believe that you could believe anything that comes out of the mouth of crazy ol' uncle Howard! I thought he was to be despised and mistrusted! Necessity is the mother as they say. Eeeeeahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
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| 12. Friday, May 5, 2006 3:44 PM |
| wowBOBwow |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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Susan, do not forget that this is not about McGovern, regardless of how you feel about him. It could have been anybody to parrot Rumsfeld's words back to him, and he would be just as dishonest. Diverging from the point and needlessly attacking McGovern does nothing but show that the issue is much less fun for you when addressed head on, which you also did, but strangly with quite a bit less gusto. Gotta love that right-wing ability to shift focus, it really is a kind of art form in of itself. Are we having fun yet?
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| 13. Friday, May 5, 2006 4:05 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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| QUO
Now, as for the Rumsfeld LIE. In front of a large crowd. No less... You either believe Rumsfeld made the WMD-Tikrit-Baghdad statement on national TV and... A. He KNEW that was NOT TRUE. OR B. He BELIEVED it to be TRUE, but it was LATER found to be NOT TRUE. If your belief is A, I agree. That qualifies as a LIE. But your belief is B, that is NOT a LIE. But let's assume you have chosen A. and we agree that such words would truly qualify as a LIE. Rumsfeld KNEW full well there were no WMD around Tikrit and Baghdad...
WHY WOULD HE SET HIMSELF UP FOR THE FOLLOW-UP REVEAL ONCE THE US OCCUPIED IRAQ? Did he think no one would notice? Did he think no one would care? I cannot accept either possibility. It is ludicrous to assume that Rumsfeld, Bush, etal. could pull off such a specific deceit and that no one would notice or care. Continuing, let's say Rumsfeld KNEW he was telling Stephanopoulus a flat out LIE. That's your assumption, right? Knowing full well that there were NO WMD were around Tikrit and Baghdad. WHY THEN WOULDN'T THEY HAVE PLANTED SOME WMD AROUND TIKRIT AND BAGHDAD???
Surely, if he would LIE about WMD... ...and he would LIE about where those imaginary WMD were located... ...he would also LIE about the subsequent "discovery" of the WMD around Tikrit and Baghdad. Surely if the goal was to convince the world of the "Dangers of Iraq" these same LIARS would have no qualms about falsely implicating that country by having arranged for at least one Iraqi hijacker on September 11. One stinking Iraqi passport! One lousy Iraqi Visa on one stinkin' Saudi passport even. But NO! They screwed up big time.
So then I think to myself, hmmm, maybe it's simply the case that there are limits to Rumsfeld's EVIL LYING ways although I would strongly doubt it. If one wants to accept the larger implication behind the hyena heckling of "LIAR-LIAR-LIAR" it would follow that the US Secretary of Defense cared more about making certain he led the US into a war even though he KNEW there was no threat from Iraq. This would tell me that he'd have no additional scruples when it comes to LYING about "finding" WMD.
Since you are starting to gain an appreciation of George Friedman, Dave, you may want to check out what he thinks about the lead up to the Iraq War. Guess who else was fully convinced that Saddam Hussein had WMD? Yup. Friedman, the "private CIA" operative with his intelligence sources in 70 key strategic countries that he claims give him superior intelligence to that of the too large, too bureaucratic CIA.
If you are bound and determined to hold onto The LYING Game theory, so be it. It just seems to me so arbitrary, so meaningless and so easily disputable. Certainly if you want to find fault with Bush, Rumsfeld or any of the rest of them, there are far better reasons to dredge up beyond the old LIAR-LIAR saw. I hate to keep harping on the dearly departed Johnny Cochran, but he was right to say "If it doesn't fit..." Susan
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I know I loaded up the thread there, but look again at the direct response to the RUMSFELD LYING QUESTION. Then tell me again how I finagled a right wing deflection. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 14. Friday, May 5, 2006 4:21 PM |
| wowBOBwow |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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I know, and if you look at my last post, I said that you DID address the issue head-on, just with less gusto as perceived by me, an admitted partisan schyster of the highest order. And we are still not talking about Rumsfeld. Good show.
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| 15. Friday, May 5, 2006 4:51 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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I HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED RUMSFELD THE LIAR AD NAUSEUM, DAVE. I almost didn't do a regurgitation because it just isn't palatable to you anyway. How many more ways are there to address that issue? I daresay I've covered them all. The subject line of this thread is on the heckling of Rumsfeld by a former CIA analyst. Hence it's important to take on the source. Now if you had heckled the Secretary of Defense in the same way, I'd be all over the place Googling wowBOBwow's inconsistencies too! Clearly we are never going to see eye to eye on the relative significance of the WMD pre-war statements by members of the bush administration. None of my questions within the Rumsfeld section, I notice, have been addressed by you. Porque? Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 16. Saturday, May 6, 2006 10:50 AM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
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This, I think, is a reasonable way to discuss WHY Rumsfeld should no longer be the Secretary of Defense. I am not in that camp and yet, if the discourse were more like this writer's, it is possible I could change my mind. I cannot argue with his REASONING. This seems to me the more productive means to engage on the subject of the war. William Arkin, not a Bush administration fan, but a sensible man. I think we could all benefit from his style of engagement instead of the constant refrains of "LIARLIARLIAR.'
Susan PS For the record, I never used the LIARLIARLIAR during the Monica days either. Consistent to a fault!
From the Washington Post on May 5 -- yesterday: William M. Arkin on National and Homeland Security Washington Post Rumsfeld Didn't Lie, But He Should Still Go
Anyone who has ever been in a relationship or taken Psych 101 knows that accusing someone of lying is unlikely to unleash truth-telling. And more important, it exposes the hand, and the conclusion, of the questioner.
Yesterday, protestors repeatedly interrupted the Defense Secretary during a speech at the Southern Center for International Studies, accusing Rumsfeld of "lying" to the American people.
No doubt used to traveling in a limousine with bodyguards, going to the right parties, filling his time with official functions and hanging out with the troops, did Donald Rumsfeld leave the lecture hall in Atlanta yesterday and say to his aide "don't ever f***n let that happen again" or did he chuckle and say "God Bless America.?"
The incidents culminated with an exchange between the Secretary of Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst -- Rumsfeld to his credit, told the organizers to let McGovern speak -- in which McGovern managed to successfully quote the Secretary back to himself saying things he wished he never said.
But did the Secretary lie? Did he know some truth and intentionally tell the American people the opposite to manipulate them? I don't think so. 
I don't want anyone to accuse me of cherry picking the transcript of yesterday's confrontation. Here is Editor and Publisher's version, Voice of America, and NewsBusters transcript, as well as the transcript of the three network's evening news shows last night.
"Why did you lie to get us into a war?" Ray McGovern asked.
"Well, first of all, I haven't lied. I did not lie then," Rumsfeld answered.McGovern pressed about pre-war statements regarding weapons of mass destruction. Rumsfeld denied lying, saying that the intelligence analysts "gave the world their honest opinion."
McGovern: "You said you knew where they were."
Rumsfeld: "I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were."
McGovern: "You said you knew where they were, near Tikrit, near Baghdad and north, east, south and west of there. Those are your words."
(Indeed they were: Appearing on ABC on March 30, 2003, Rumsfeld said about WMD: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.")
McGovern: "I'm talking about lies and your allegation that there was bulletproof evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq. Was that a lie, or were you misled?"
Rumsfeld: "Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the pre-war period. That is a fact."
McGovern: "Zarqawi? He was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule, that's where he was."
Rumsfeld: "He was also in Baghdad."
McGovern: "Yeah, when he had to go to the hospital."
If the issue here is Saddam Hussein's connection to al Qaeda and his involvement in 9/11, to the "bulletproof" evidence the administration claimed, and more important for America, to the likelihood that Saddam would have ever shared any WMD with terrorists -- the true strategic assumption behind the Iraq war and the justification for our entire WMD obsessed foreign policy today -- McGovern scored.
But if the issue is Zarqawi, and a spooked and reeling Bush administration worrying that they just don't really know what's going on in places like Iraq, that they can't rely on the great CIA, and that they can't predict what will happen, Rumsfeld scored.
Yesterday the Secretary of Defense was able to say without equivocation and hesitation that "it appears there were not weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, but that is not the headline.
Certainly we remember not too long ago administration officials saying that WMD were still to be found, that it's not over 'til it's over.
In the end it comes down to McGovern's question: Why did you lie, not did you.
A better question for McGovern, once he was given a chance to talk, once he was standing their on television, once he had Rumsfeld captive, would have been: Mr. Secretary, do you now see that you or the administration were wrong about Iraq's WMD or the characterization of Iraq as imminent threat?
I know that Rumsfeld could have slipped away with some political answer. It is still a better question.
I imagine McGovern's goal yesterday was to get on the evening news. It was a spectacle, and McGovern wasn't really seeking an answer to any question: he already had the answers; he was just seeking to expose.
The protestors screeching impeachment and "lying" yesterday, as well as McGovern, can't accept that there is a difference between being wrong and deceiving. They are so stuck in a mode of accusation and certainty they don't really think there is any point in political dialogue with the administration. Bush is Hitler, and with that he, nor Rumsfeld, deserves human courtesy. 
Human courtesy would mean understanding fallibility, fear, pride, the drive of false certainty in office. I'm not asking anyone to accept the war or the dominant national security orthodoxy, which I abhor. I just don't want the only answer to be pulling a lever every four years; there are alternatives, even politicians and the administration learns. We are here as citizens to teach and guide them.
In the end, my respect for the Secretary went up when he said, responding to another protester that accusations of lying are "so wrong, so unfair and so destructive."
My guess is that the impact of the confrontation won't be for Donald Rumsfeld to seek forgiveness. More likely, the Secretary will just become ever more careful to say nothing at the podium or in interviews in the future.
The best reason for Donald Rumsfeld to step down as Secretary is that he has become the debate, a lightening rod who can no longer continue to perform this important duty. America needs someone in charge of the military who can give candid answers without fear of having yesterday's candid answers thrown back in their face. America also needs to give its leaders a chance to be wrong. The implications such intolerance to error is to push human beings up against the wall, a place where there is no good outcome.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 17. Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:04 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Rumsfeld Heckled by Former CIA Analyst |
Member Since 12/18/2005 Posts:7632
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Oh you know me. I never tire of the old dead horse. But I thought this latest George Friedman piece might shed some light on the "art of intelligence" and its many grave shortcomings. I thought Danwhy might post it but he must be relaxing on some 6 week paid vacation in the Mediterranean or something. I pick up the slack on his behalf.  All in all, this doesn't trend positive. Maybe we all have to learn to live with a surplus of uncertainty. Susan The Intelligence Problem By George Friedman
May 9, 2006
Porter Goss has been fired as director of the CIA and is to be replaced by Gen. Michael Hayden -- who is now deputy to Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte and formerly was director of the National Security Agency (NSA). Viewed from beyond the Beltway -- and we are far outside the Beltway -- it appears that the Bush administration is reshuffling the usual intelligence insiders, and to a great extent, that is exactly what is happening. But there is more: White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten, having decided such matters as who the new press secretary should be, has turned to what is a very real problem for President George W. Bush: a vicious battle between the White House and the CIA.
The fight is simply about who bears the blame for Iraq. The White House and the Defense Department have consistently blamed the CIA for faulty intelligence on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and over the failure to predict and understand the insurgency in Iraq. The CIA has responded by leaking studies showing that its intelligence indeed was correct but was ignored by Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle. There certainly were studies inside the CIA that were accurate on the subject -- but given the thousands of people working for the agency, someone had to be right. The question is not whether someone got it right, but what was transmitted to the White House in then-Director George Tenet's briefings. At this point, it really does not matter. There was a massive screw-up, with plenty of blame to go around.
Still, it is probably not good for the White House and the CIA to be in a vicious fight while a war is still going on. The firing of Goss, who was a political appointee brought in to bring the agency to heel, is clearly a concession to the CIA, where he and his aides were hated (that is not too strong a word.) Hayden at least is an old hand in the intelligence community, albeit it at the NSA and not the CIA. Whether this is an attempt to placate the agency in order to dam up its leaks to the press, or whether Bush is bringing in the big guns to crush agency resistance, is unclear. This could be a move by Rumsfeld to take CIA turf. But in many ways, these questions are simply what we call "Washington gas" -- meaning something that is of infinite fascination within Washington, D.C., but of no interest elsewhere and of little lasting significance anywhere.
The issue is not who heads the CIA or what its bureaucratic structure might be. The issue is, as it has been for decades, what it is that the CIA and the rest of the intelligence community are supposed to do and how they are supposed to do it. On the surface, the answer to that is clear: The job of the intelligence community, taken as a whole, is to warn the president of major threats or changes in the international system. At least that appears to be the mission, but the problem with that definition is that the intelligence community (or IC) has never been good at dealing with major surprises, threats and issues. Presidents have always accepted major failures on the part of the IC.
Consider. The IC failed to predict the North Korean invasion of South Korea. It failed to predict Chinese intervention there. It failed to predict the Israeli-British-French invasion of Suez in 1956. It failed to recognize that Castro was a communist until well after he took power. It failed to predict the Berlin Wall. It failed to predict or know that the Soviets had placed missiles in Cuba (a discovery that came with U-2 overflights by the Air Force). It failed to recognize the Sino-Soviet split until quite late. It failed to predict the tenacity of the North Vietnamese in the face of bombing, and their resilience in South Vietnam. The IC was very late in recognizing the fall of the shah of Iran. It was taken by surprise by the disintegration of communism in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. It failed to predict the intentions of al Qaeda. And it failed in Iraq.
Historically, the American intelligence community has been superb when faced with clearly defined missions. It had the ability to penetrate foreign governments, to eavesdrop on highly secure conversations, to know the intentions of a particular foreign minister at a particular meeting. Given a clear mission, the IC performed admirably. Where it consistently failed was in the amorphous mission of telling the president what he did not know about something that was about to change everything. When the IC was told to do something specific, it did it well. When it was asked to tell the president what he needed to know -- a broad and vague brief -- it consistently fell down.
This is why the argument going on between the CIA and the White House/Defense Department misses the point. Bush well might have ignored or twisted intelligence on Iraq's WMD. But the failure over Iraq is not the exception, it is the rule. The CIA tends to get the big things wrong, while nailing the lesser things time and again. This is a persistent and not easily broken pattern, for which there are some fundamental causes.
The first is that the IC sees its task as keeping its customers -- the president and senior members of his administration -- happy. They have day-to-day requirements, such as being briefed for a meeting with a foreign leader. The bread-and-butter work of the IC is the briefing book, which tells a secretary of state what buttons to push at a ministerial meeting. Ninety-nine percent of the taskings that come to the IC concern these things. And the IC could get 99 percent of the task right; they know that this minister is on the take, or that that minister is in a terrible fight with a rival, or that some leader is dying. They do that over and over again -- that is their focus. They are rarely rewarded for the risky business of forecasting, and if they fail to forecast the invasion of South Korea, they can still point to the myriad useful things at which they did succeed.
When members of the IC say that no one sees the vital work they do, they are right. And they are encouraged to do this work by their customers. If they miss the fall of the Soviet Union, it is the bread-and-butter work that keeps them going. If the nuts and bolts of intelligence compete with the vital need of a government to be ready for the unexpected, the nuts and bolts must win every time. The reason is simple: the unexpected rarely happens, but meetings of the G-8 happen every year. The system is built for the routine. It is hard to build a system for the unexpected.
A second problem is size. The American intelligence community is much too big. It has way too many resources. It is awash in information that is not converted into intelligence that is delivered to its customers. Huge organizations will lose information in the shuffle. The bigger they are, the more they lose. Little Stratfor struggles to make sure that intelligence flowing from the field is matched to the right analyst and that analysts working on the same problem talk to each other, and it is tough. Doing it with tens of thousands of sources and intelligence officers, thousands of analysts and hundreds of briefers is a failure waiting to happen. All of the databases dreamt of by all of the information technology people in the IC cannot make up for total overload.
It can be argued that there is no alternative. The United States has global interests and thus must have global and massive resources. But the fact is that global interests are not well-served by a system that is too large to function efficiently. Whatever the need is, the reality is that managing the vast apparatus of the IC is overwhelmingly difficult, to the point of failure. Moreover, the management piece is so daunting that finding space to look for the unexpected -- and transmit that finding efficiently to the customer -- has been consistently impossible. The intelligence services of smaller countries sometimes do much better at the big things than massive intelligence services. The KGB was an example of intelligence paralysis due, among other things, to size.
A third issue is the cult of sourcing. There is a belief that a man on the ground is the most valuable asset there is. But that depends on where he is on the ground and who he is. A man on the ground can see hundreds of feet in any direction, assuming that there are no buildings in the way. It always amuses us to hear that so-and-so spent three years in some country -- implying expertise. We always wonder whether an Iranian spending three years in Washington, D.C., would be regarded as an expert around whom analysis could be built. Moreover, these three-year wonders frequently start doing freelance analysis, overriding analysts who have been studying a country for decades -- after all, they are "on the ground." But a blond American on the ground in the Philippines is fairly obvious, especially when he starts buying drinks for everyone, and the value of his "intelligence" is therefore suspect. Sourcing is vital; so are the questions of who, where and for how long.
The most significant weakness of the cult of sourcing is that the most important events -- like the Chinese intervention in Korea -- might be unreported, or -- like the fall of the shah -- might not be known to anyone. These things happened, but there was an intelligence collection failure in the first case; the second failure stemmed not from a collection problem, but from a purely analytic one. In any case, the lack of a source does not mean an event is not happening; it just means there is no source. There is no question but that sources are the foundation of intelligence -- but the heart of intelligence is the ability to infer when there is no source.
Another problem is the IC's obsession with security, compartmentalization and counterintelligence. The Soviet Union's prime mission was to penetrate the U.S. IC. Huge inefficiencies were, therefore, appropriately incurred in order to prevent penetration. The compartmentalization of sensitive information increases security, but it pyramids inefficiency. Al Qaeda is not engaged in penetrating the IC. It is dangerous in a different way than the Soviets were. Security and counterintelligence remain vital, but shifting the balance to take current realities into account also is vital. Intelligence work involves calculated risk. The current system not only keeps smart and interesting people out of jobs, but more important, it keeps them from access to the information they need to make the smart inferences that are so vital. That would seem to be too high a price to pay in the current threat environment. Information on China can be compartmentalized; information on the Muslim world could be treated differently.
The IC wants consistent messaging. They want to produce one product that speaks with a single coherent voice. The problem is that the world is much messier than that. Giving a president the benefit of the official CIA position on a matter is useful, but not as useful as allowing him to see the disputes, discomfort and doubts stemming from the different schools of thought. Those disagreements are sometimes treated as embarrassing by the IC -- but honest, public self-criticism builds confidence. Stratfor -- and we are not comparing our tiny outfit to the IC, with its massive responsibilities -- publishes an annual report card with our forecasts, specifying where we succeeded and failed. We may as well; our readers and clients know anyway.
This may not be what the president wants, of course, and Negroponte and Hayden will want to give him what he wants. But the head of an intelligence agency is like a doctor: He must give the patient what he needs and try to make it look like what the patient wants. In the end, it doesn’t matter what you do, as Porter Goss has just found out. Negroponte and Hayden will probably lose their jobs anyway -- through resigning or being sacked, or through Bush's second term ending. Even if they are lucky, their jobs won't last much more than two years. There is no percentage in hedging, when you think of it that way.
Perhaps the single greatest weakness of the IC is its can-do attitude. It cannot do everything that it is being asked to do -- and by trying, it cannot do the most important things that need to be done. It has had, as its mission, covering the world and predicting major events for the president. It has failed to do so on major issues since its founding, finding solace in substantial success on lesser issues. But it is possible that the bandwidth of the IC, already sucked up by massive management burdens, is completely burned up by the lesser issues. It may be that the briefing book to the president for his next meeting with the president of Paraguay or Botswana will be thinner, or he might just have to wing it. The republic will survive that. The focus must be on the things that count.
Rethinking why there is an intelligence community and how it does its job is the prerequisite for Hayden and Negroponte to be successful. We do not believe for a minute that they will do so. They don't have enough time in office, they have too many meetings to attend, they have too many divergent views to reconcile into a single coherent report. Above all, the CIA has to be prepared to battle the real enemy, which is the rest of the intelligence community -- from the Defense Intelligence Agency to the FBI. And, of course, the odd staffer at the White House.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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