I'm not sure if this is a popular theory, but recalling the scene in the series finale where Annie (in the Lodge) tells Cooper: "Dale, I saw the face of the man who killed me."... does this refer to Annie's later death at the hands of the BOB-possessed Cooper? Noting how things that Cooper sees in the Black Lodge seem to refer to later refer to events in the future (his dream at the end of the third episode, and then in the finale Maddie saying, "Take care of my cousin.", referring to what we see at the end of Fire Walk With Me), I feel this idea stands up. Also, given Annie's latter appearance in Laura's dream, she appears bloody and almost corpse-like in the first shot where we see her in Laura's dream.

Perhaps what Cooper encountered in the Lodge was an aspect of the deceased Annie assuring her love that she knew he wasn't directly responsible for what he did under Bob's possession? Notice how she looks sad as she fades away in the midst of the conversation between Cooper and Earle, perhaps she's aware of the ultimate outcome. Also, it's a bitter irony, Cooper saves her soul only for her to meet a worse fate at BOB's hands.

Also, thinking about the finale today, I find it interesting that Cooper, the chief protaganist and the outsider who comes to love the town, is forever trapped (given the story ends there) in the Black Lodge and unable to return to Twin Peaks. Like him, we the audience have hit a narrative dead-end, and are also forever unable to return to Twin Peaks. At least at any point in the future anyway, for coming to Fire Walk With Me, we find Cooper is still there, but with Laura. Perhaps Lynch was more conscious there may be no further Twin Peaks, and depicted Cooper now happy and at peace with his destiny despite where he had ended up, with possibly a potential new friendship with Laura so he wouldn't be entirely alone. Factor in the holy prescence of the angel, and you have a sense of spiritual renewal for the two as they prepare for the afterlife.

-- Gerry

the black dog runs at night

This may not have any relevance, but I thought Maddie said "Watch out for my cousin" in the finale. I always took that to be a warning about Laura's doppelganger, and not a "look after my cousin" kinda thing.

Sheesh, would you want to look after a howling harpie like that? Yikes!

Here's a weird one, after reading about everyone's most disturbing TP moment the other night, I dreamt I was being initiated into a college society, like a sorority or something, and they had found out everyone's biggest fears and had them materialize as part of a 'who can get past their fear' kinda ritual. Of course, I had to endure Laura's screaming doppelganger in every room I was in, and even when I tried looking away I'd still see her face in my peripheral vision. Anyway, as it turned out I got through it okay, only to find out that I'd been initiated into a coven. So, I was trapped with a bunch of witches. Perhaps I need some time off TP....
 

"I'm Maddy. Watch out for my cousin."

ARGH! I do apologize! ;) Comes with only having seen it twice! ;) But still, "watch out for" does still imply to look out for, and to take care of someone lest they come to harm. Of course, we see Laura's doppelganger soon after that, but while frightening as it is, it wasn't an absoloute danger to Cooper... it was still the Lodge perhaps preparing him for confronting his doppelganger and presenting the idea of the threat it would pose. The whole sequence builds to the final showdown with Coop's double, such as the dwarf's "The next time you see me, it won't be me." and then we see his doppelganger later on. But then again, Cooper encountered a rather hyperactive dwarf in the room with Maddie, are we assume that was the dwarf's doppelganger too?

Given Lynch's conscious desire to return to Laura Palmer that he admitted to in interviews relating to Fire Walk With Me, perhaps with Cooper in the Black Lodge, the third season would have dealt with him befriending Laura's spirit, thereby bringing her back into the series as a character. (Or rather technically for the first time, as a character!) 

-- Gerry

the black dog runs at night

I completely agree. People may have seen some posts of mine from a while back about the self-awareness of the show, not just self-parody, but an awareness that it is a medium being interpreted by others, which is confirmed by, to name a couple of examples, the soap opera show Invitation to Love, television motifs, blatantly cinematic dialogue countered with hopelessly real dialogue, the scene where James sings the song, and of course, Cooper.

Cooper's journey through TP is our own journey. As he falls in love, so do we. As he begins to fear, so do we. As Laura becomes something he truly cares about solving beyond just his duty as an agent, we begin to fall in love with her. You've hit it right on the spot when you say his entrapment in the Black Lodge reflects our own. When he bangs his head in the mirror, so do we, not out of outrage or anger at the SHOW, but at the CIRCUMSTANCES and our inability to ever know.

In FWWM, as you say, Cooper's celestial appearance with Laura and the Angel sucessfully brings our relationship with TP to a calm death. Maybe this is the future Coop, maybe its the trapped Coop, maybe its the escaped Coop, we can't say for sure, but the sense of security he gives to Laura gives to us faith in Laura's and his souls.  

I'm going to ask something of you all. We always debate over what TRULY happens after Season Two (there was even a thread about it), and so many possibilties are true. But REALLY, when we think about the strength and traits of Cooper, I feel there's no way he could EVER fail in the end. Yes, he has flaws. Yes, he is a tragic hero that arises PATHOS in us, the audience, and he has a downfall based on this flaw. But I think he rises again. If cooper can't rise in the end, then who will in the TP world? 

This would look good on your wall.

-Noah- 

-- Gerry

the black dog runs at night

I always liked the double entendre of Annie and Caroline saying "I saw the face of the man who killed me."  I always imagined it could be that way, and especially as Laura had the same thing said about her, I think that Bob could be said to have played a role in all three deaths.

-cg

This is a very good thread waldo, and gives some refreshing food for thought. It's nice to see a thread like this for a change.

I have opinons on pretty much all you've said, but rather than going back taking quotes from them and replying, I will respond according to topic as there seem to have become several in one, but that's cool. :)

Maddy: I'm pretty sure it is not actually Maddy herself, but her doppelganger who talks to Coop in the black lodge. When she says "Watch out for my cousin", sorry, but I strongly disagree that she is asking Coop to "look after" Laura, though I can understand why you would think that. Just play that scene back again and listen to the spooky cautious tone in her voice. The watch out sounds like a chilling forwearning of the doppelganger to me and always has done. I think she is telling Cooper to be careful OF Laura, because as she is also Maddy's dopp, she already knows what Laura's dopp is about to do. Don't be fooled just because Cooper smiles at her. Think about it.

If she were really the real Maddy, why would she be helping someone else who could be trying for all she knows to hurt her real cousin's soul? It just comes across to me like that Maddy (because it's an evil dopp) wants the Laura dopp to fail, so she can get closer to finding the real Laura and Maddy and hurting them. I think this is the case with all dopps, but in this scene in particular, and it also explains why the dwarf's dopp is laughing, - because Maddy is fooling Cooper and he doesn't even seem to realise. He does warn Coop "When you see me again, it won't be me", meaning it will be his dopp, so in that case why would a good Maddy be in the same room as an evil dopp? She would be terrified if it was really her!! (Of the creepy screaming/laughing dwarf dopp!!) But that Maddy also seems unnnaturally calm, don't you think? Something else I have noticed about ALL the evil dopps (apart from the LMFAP who seems to be everywhere at once) is that the dopps all walk in from behind the curtain, while the good spirits don't.

As for the Caroline/Annie thing, I think that is purely Windom Earle trying to be cleverer than he actually is, in order to frighten and confuse Cooper, which he does. He simply switches Annie and Caroline's bodies back and forth at the worng moment, so Cooper will think Earle has also killed Annie, when infact we later find out she is still alive and fine,  even though Cooper actually knows the truth is it was Caroline who was killed, it seems like part of his subconscious almost wants to believe Annie has died so that in his reality, even though it's not actually happening, Caroline will still be alive. It's like when he sees, and holds, what is, (because of the eyes) obviously Caroline's doppelganger and not the real her, he belives she is still there and real, until Laura's doppelganger again screams in his face and then he seems to get a reality check (being forced to realise by Laura that it is not really Caroline) and Annie fades away. I think when Annie is in FWWM in bed with Laura, that is simply when she was still in the lodge, or had just come out of it and was still lying on the floor beside Coop, yet somehow she telepathed a message into Laura to write down what had happened by saying "the good Dale is in the lodge and he can't leave" and that was purely for our benefit so we would know what had happened to him.

So basically I don't think too much should be read into that - it was merely Lynch's way of telling us the "good" Dale IS still trapped in the lodge while BOB and his dopp wreak havoc on the outside. I think this whole scene with Annie was probably intended to give us some sort of closure. (In FWWM I mean) I also think the scene at the end with good Coop and good Laura at the end of FWWM should certainly not be viewed as Cooper failing in any way, but rather, as a victory for both the characters of Dale Cooper and Laura Palmer, giving us the beautiful satisfaction of knowing that, even if they ARE trapped in the lodge forever, they will never be lonely, because they will always have each other and have each other's love, and that is just a beautiful way of closure to me. Very bittersweet, and I think a happy ending rather than anything that should be perceived as a failure in any way.

"watch out for my cousin.."

Jesus Christ! It seems like every post on this thread is extremely long and all-encompassing. Good stuff! I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but it's all good. However, this business about how Maddy's doppleganger wants to fool Coop and hurt Laura and the Midget warning him about it is (in my opinion) a bad, bad case of overtheorizing (My new word!). Lynch seems to be trying to parade in all the characters that he can get (I thought he should've squeezed in Josie). A good example is how Sylvia Horne marches in, has two lines, and then the scene plays out without her.

I have many different tasks, but the one that most interests me is the study of UFO's.

Haven't posted here in a while, but here's my view:

I'm pretty sure Coop's stuck in the Black Lodge forever. I don't think there's any way to get back out when you don't have your soul...I think that for the entirety of Twin Peaks (except for a lot of irrelevant season 2 episodes) is a game between the spirits to decide the fate of Laura's soul. I'm not sure exactly who's on who's side, but I know that BOB is on the side that wants to keep Laura's soul in the Black Lodge. Because he didn't manage to possess her and overcome him, he doesn't have that right. But for some reason (maybe she isn't pure enough to go to the White Lodge) she is stuck in Limbo, or the Waiting Room, until her savior comes (Cooper of course). I think that Coop was predestined to save Laura...anyways BOB plays an elaborate trick (which runs throughout pretty much the entirety of the show... maybe even in events that take place before the start...) to trap Cooper in the Black Lodge, only for BOB to have the trick played on him since Coop saves Laura's soul. I'm not clear on a few things though (i.e. how Coop gets back in Limbo for FWWM). This is the ultimate end of Twin Peaks; it didn't go on because both the stories of Cooper and Laura are now wrapped up... without them, the show is nothing. I imagine Annie would inform Harry about Coop and he will die a death similar to Leland's.

Anyways, concerning Annie, Laura, Caroline, and Windham Earle:

 I have a theory that Laura does not have a doppelganger at this point because she's in limbo. There is no proof that we actually see Laura's doppelganger. When she screams at Coop we see Windham Earle's face, blurred, briefly (a much ignored moment). Windham is taking Laura's form. I think he was also Annie and Caroline when they're talking to Coop (the real Annie appears elsewhere briefly). Also think about the significance of these three... they are Cooper's past, present, and future loves, and we all know that Windham likes to meddle with Coop's love life... I think much of the Black Lodge finale is Windham tormenting Coop. BOB is allowing him to control the Black Lodge to make him think he's in a position of power. I also think that Maddy and Leland are merely cameo appearances that Lynch decided to throw in. I doubt they mean anything. They are doppelgangers because everyone that lives in the Black Lodge is a doppelganger. I also doubt that Annie would die, since she obviously knows that Coop is possessed.

That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!

i have to agree with LWAPOM to a large extent, id even go so far as to say that the ending of the entierity of twin peaks(if there is one) is the end of FWWM, and takes place in the white lodge. im basing that on the "angels" that are so important to laura, and the film. ronette prays for forgiveness and help, and is spared her life through metaphysical means by the angel that appears. the angels appear again for laura in the coda, after bob/leland go back to the black lodge, the garmonbozia is taken from him, said garmonbozia is consumed and a monkey says judy. what those things have to do with laura i think is a question best not puzzled over too much, and are just as likely to say more about the explainer than what they are explaining. i have my own views that i think are validated in a TP world, as each of us do, and probably none are exactly the same. the ending, however, is unambiguously positive, however bittersweet. laura, tho some may say garishly, is done up like a silent film star, and is laughing/crying out of joy at the appearance of her angel, and coop, the good coop, is there with her. and they dont look afraid. my only explaination is that this is the white lodge, which must be opened with love, not fear. in a out of this time and this dimension way, coop helps laura by finding her killer(bob), and laura helps coop by making bob kill her by taking the ring so that he cannot possess and be her, thus bringing coop to TP to find bob, who, tho he takes the upper hand in ep.29, loses out in the end of FWWM. this is just my general feeling on how the world of twin peaks is last seen. i could go into all the excruiating details, but i doubt its worth it. unless others here feel a need to voice, of course. 

i forgot the thing that i initially wanted to post about, annie!
my interpetation is that in FWWM, she is actually a message from cooper to laura, as there is no definitive time in the lodge, just as there is no definitive space, re:laura dopp, annie, caroline dopp, and earle all occuping the same place in front of coop in the black lodge. so if time is ambiguous in the lodge, all times can exist at once, just like all places. alright, im getting too abstract for even me. thats all i got to say.

In response to the first post here, It was Caroline saying "I saw the face of the man who killed me", even though she looked like Annie at first. Like when "Laura" screamed and turned into Windom Earl. It was Windom screaming, not Laura..Then again, it was their dopplegangers, since Dale Cooper was the only "human" in the lodge at the time - yes, Windom was a doppleganger too. Only Cooper spoke normally, no one else. Everyone else spoke that backward slur, like all good dopplegangers do. Also, Laura is taken to the White Lodge by an angel at the end of FWWM - this is shown by her being surrounded by white in the closing credits. Dale is not there to take care of her after that. You know - 'I'll see you again in 25 years".

Annie looking bloody in Laura's dream - That's how she looked when she was taken to the hospital after getting out of the Lodge. She was not dead.Whether or not Cooper/Bob would have killed her (I'm sure he would, given the chance) will never be known without a season 3, which never happened.

That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!

That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!

You're right - the reason she slurs is because she's dead, not because she's a doppleganger. Like I said, only a living human talks normally in the Black Lodge.

I can't delete this duplicate entry !!!

I danced and died a thousand times!