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| 1. Friday, April 22, 2011 6:06 PM |
| MargaretLanternman |
So Blue Velvet |
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So Blue Velvet is supposed to be the more "normal" (compared to Twin Peaks, FWWM, Lost Highway & Mulholland Dr.)?
"This is the Girl."
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| 2. Saturday, April 23, 2011 9:25 AM |
| Booth |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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Normal in the sense that there's nothing supernatural in it, sure. It's certainly better than all of them.
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| 3. Sunday, April 24, 2011 6:46 AM |
| Lynchman72 |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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I consider The Straight Story and The Elephant Man to be more "normal", than say, Blue Velvet or even Wild At Heart.
Ben: "We've laid in a gala reception for your fair-haired boys tonight. All of Twin Peaks' best and brightest." Jerry: "We're holding it in a phone booth?"
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| 4. Sunday, April 24, 2011 3:18 PM |
| one suave folk |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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| QUOTE:I consider The Straight Story and The Elephant Man to be more "normal", than say, Blue Velvet or even Wild At Heart. |
Or "realistic", as both were based on actual stories.
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| 5. Monday, April 25, 2011 3:47 AM |
| Cooped |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE:So Blue Velvet is supposed to be the more "normal" (compared to Twin Peaks, FWWM, Lost Highway & Mulholland Dr.)?
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Less surreal, more of a fixed narrative perspective.
I don't really get your question Megs?: It's more like a statement, or a half finished thought?
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| 6. Monday, April 25, 2011 5:36 AM |
| Robin Davies |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE:Normal in the sense that there's nothing supernatural in it, sure. It's certainly better than all of them.
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I'm reluctant to disagree with someone who has the good taste to put Scott Walker in their avatar, but Blue Velvet is certainly inferior to all of them. Blue Velvet has some great moments but also some deeply embarrassing ones, and overall it was a slightly clunky attempt to marry Lynch's trademark weird mood with mainstream cinema. I think it took until Lost Highway before Lynch managed to fully recapture the awesome brilliance of Eraserhead.
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| 7. Monday, April 25, 2011 8:04 AM |
| Exy |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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There is little doubt in my mind that "Blue Velvet" is David Lynch's first masterpiece and it shares a lot in common with Twin Peaks in look and feel. It does show it's age somewhat if that's what you mean by 'embarrassing bits'.
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| 8. Monday, April 25, 2011 1:36 PM |
| Booth |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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| QUOTE: Blue Velvet has some great moments but also some deeply embarrassing ones, and overall it was a slightly clunky attempt to marry Lynch's trademark weird mood with mainstream cinema. I think it took until Lost Highway before Lynch managed to fully recapture the awesome brilliance of Eraserhead.
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I haven't found anything deeply embarrassing in Blue Velvet. There are some clunkers in the dialogue, both in the writing and the delivery, and Frank Booth is more ridiculous than frightening. Lost Highway has some problems, most obviously with the soundtrack which only brings to mind the Kids in the hall skit "He's hip, he's cool, he's 45".
Blue Velvet is simply his most consistently good movie. And it's a little interesting that you bring up the marriage attempt with mainstream cinema since I've always considered Blue Velvet as the "meanwhile, in another part of town" version of John Waters' Polyester.
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| 9. Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:06 AM |
| Robin Davies |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. I think Lynch is an absolute master at conveying nightmarish horror, surreal beauty, black comedy and sometimes an intoxicating mixture of all three (perhaps best expressed in some of Mulholland Drive's scenes like Adam's encounter with The Cowboy, or the Club Silencio scene), but he seems to struggle with scenes of "goodness". The aforementioned scenes in Blue Velvet, the angel at the end of TP:FWWM, the good witch in Wild At Heart - all seem a little hokey somehow. The redemption scene in INLAND EMPIRE is a bit better, possibly because I don't really have a clue what's going on - I just get the mood that is being conveyed.
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| 10. Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:09 PM |
| giospurs |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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I completely agree Robin. Lynch really does have trouble with representations of the good. Out of the darkness of most of his films you would have thought it would be easy to show a glimmer of lightness subtly just as it would be noticeable in contrast to its surroundings. I've always assumed that there was some level of irony to something like the appearance of the good witch in Wild at Heart because of the exaggeratedly saccharine ending to the film.
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| 11. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:25 AM |
| Exy |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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| QUOTE:The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. |
I've always taken both the examples you cite as intended to be deliberately ironic and never intended to be anything other than hokey. Come on, this is Lynch 101 here, isn't the fact it's not a real robin a clear indication that writer/director is fully aware that the "American Dream" is just that, a dream not a reality for most people?
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| 12. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:54 AM |
| giospurs |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE:| QUOTE:The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. |
I've always taken both the examples you cite as intended to be deliberately ironic and never intended to be anything other than hokey. Come on, this is Lynch 101 here, isn't the fact it's not a real robin a clear indication that writer/director is fully aware that the "American Dream" is just that, a dream not a reality for most people?
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I don't think the angel scene in FWWM is meant to be ironic, but I agree that the robin and good witch are likely meant to be ironic. The Blue Velvet ending scene works because it is a parallel with the beginning of the film's classic Lynch darkness dwelling under the surface of the American homes. But what about the ending of Wild at Heart? What does he mean there?
Sometimes it seems too easy to hedge one's bets with the suggestion that one's actually being 'ironic', and thereby denying criticism that way.
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| 13. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 5:45 AM |
| Booth |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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It's hokey because it's sincere. It's not the equivalent of a bad guy twirling his mustache. And the robin is real, just not alive.
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| 14. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 7:06 AM |
| Exy |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE: QUOTE: | QUOTE:The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. |
I've always taken both the examples you cite as intended to be deliberately ironic and never intended to be anything other than hokey. Come on, this is Lynch 101 here, isn't the fact it's not a real robin a clear indication that writer/director is fully aware that the "American Dream" is just that, a dream not a reality for most people?
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Sometimes it seems too easy to hedge one's bets with the suggestion that one's actually being 'ironic', and thereby denying criticism that way.
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Wow, these quotes are like Russian Dolls! I wasn't hedging my bets when I said 'ironic' (are the inverted commas here tautological?) Sandy's dream is ironic in the way it is written and performed and shot in front of the illuminated stained glass windows of the church and the organ swell in Badalamenti’s score; this is an overegged pudding and something clearly not to be taken literally but recognised as a massive exaggeration. The robin is clearly mechanical, albeit probably a stuffed real live robin at one point, it is obviously not a living robin in the shot (and it so easily could have been) - Lynch speaks coyly about this, as is his trademark approach, but it's pretty apparent that he intended for us the audience to realise that the bird is not the genuine article and draw our conclusions as to why from it.
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| 15. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 10:53 AM |
| Booth |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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| QUOTE: Wow, these quotes are like Russian Dolls! I wasn't hedging my bets when I said 'ironic' (are the inverted commas here tautological?) Sandy's dream is ironic in the way it is written and performed and shot in front of the illuminated stained glass windows of the church and the organ swell in Badalamenti’s score; this is an overegged pudding and something clearly not to be taken literally but recognised as a massive exaggeration. |
Since Blue Velvet is all about film noir entering the realm of teenybopper movies, it isn't really that strange a scene. Just imagine how Gidget would feel if she stumbled into Kiss Me Deadly.
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| 16. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 12:59 PM |
| giospurs |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE:QUOTE: QUOTE: | QUOTE:The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. |
I've always taken both the examples you cite as intended to be deliberately ironic and never intended to be anything other than hokey. Come on, this is Lynch 101 here, isn't the fact it's not a real robin a clear indication that writer/director is fully aware that the "American Dream" is just that, a dream not a reality for most people?
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Sometimes it seems too easy to hedge one's bets with the suggestion that one's actually being 'ironic', and thereby denying criticism that way.
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Wow, these quotes are like Russian Dolls! I wasn't hedging my bets when I said 'ironic' (are the inverted commas here tautological?) Sandy's dream is ironic in the way it is written and performed and shot in front of the illuminated stained glass windows of the church and the organ swell in Badalamenti’s score; this is an overegged pudding and something clearly not to be taken literally but recognised as a massive exaggeration. The robin is clearly mechanical, albeit probably a stuffed real live robin at one point, it is obviously not a living robin in the shot (and it so easily could have been) - Lynch speaks coyly about this, as is his trademark approach, but it's pretty apparent that he intended for us the audience to realise that the bird is not the genuine article and draw our conclusions as to why from it. |
No, when I said about hedging your bets through irony, I was accusing Lynch or any kind of artist of that, not you. What I meant was you can overegg something slightly even if it's meant to be sincere and then if anyone criticises it's 'hokiness' then you can say you were actually being ironic. I'm not saying that's what Lynch does but it's easier than being honest and sincere. Also, I'm not so sure all of those examples are not in fact sincere. Was the 'Just You and I' scene in TP ironic? I don't think so. Lynch can just be very treacly when he's dealing with love scenes and such. And that's a good thing in my book. If Lynch was too knowing with his portrayals of Americana and cherry pie and a sheriff named Harry S Truman, then it just wouldn't work. He has to be on their side.
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| 17. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:05 PM |
| one suave folk |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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Mechanical robin akin to a clockwork orange?
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| 18. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:07 PM |
| Booth |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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| QUOTE:Mechanical robin akin to a clockwork orange? | Weekend at Robin's.
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| 19. Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:10 PM |
| one suave folk |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE: | QUOTE:Mechanical robin akin to a clockwork orange? | Weekend at Robin's.
| The Well Dressed Man & Robin!!!
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| 20. Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:04 AM |
| Exy |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE: | QUOTE: Wow, these quotes are like Russian Dolls! I wasn't hedging my bets when I said 'ironic' (are the inverted commas here tautological?) Sandy's dream is ironic in the way it is written and performed and shot in front of the illuminated stained glass windows of the church and the organ swell in Badalamenti’s score; this is an overegged pudding and something clearly not to be taken literally but recognised as a massive exaggeration. |
Since Blue Velvet is all about film noir entering the realm of teenybopper movies, it isn't really that strange a scene. Just imagine how Gidget would feel if she stumbled into Kiss Me Deadly.
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That might be true if "Blue Velvet" was set in the 1960s but it's not, it's offered to us as a film set in the present day, present day 1986 anyway. So Sandy isn't Gidget really, she's more like Debbie Gibson!
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| 21. Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:28 AM |
| Booth |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE: That might be true if "Blue Velvet" was set in the 1960s but it's not, it's offered to us as a film set in the present day, present day 1986 anyway. So Sandy isn't Gidget really, she's more like Debbie Gibson! | More like Debbie Reynolds! Blue Velvet isn't set in the 1960s, it's set in an atavistic 1986. Sand(ra D)ee has a poster of Monty Clift on her wall, how many teen girls had that in 1986?
Even on an aesthetic level, BV has more in common with something like Logan's Picnic than any other movie released in 86.
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| 22. Friday, April 29, 2011 1:02 AM |
| Exy |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: | QUOTE:The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. |
I've always taken both the examples you cite as intended to be deliberately ironic and never intended to be anything other than hokey. Come on, this is Lynch 101 here, isn't the fact it's not a real robin a clear indication that writer/director is fully aware that the "American Dream" is just that, a dream not a reality for most people?
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Sometimes it seems too easy to hedge one's bets with the suggestion that one's actually being 'ironic', and thereby denying criticism that way.
|
Wow, these quotes are like Russian Dolls! I wasn't hedging my bets when I said 'ironic' (are the inverted commas here tautological?) Sandy's dream is ironic in the way it is written and performed and shot in front of the illuminated stained glass windows of the church and the organ swell in Badalamenti’s score; this is an overegged pudding and something clearly not to be taken literally but recognised as a massive exaggeration. The robin is clearly mechanical, albeit probably a stuffed real live robin at one point, it is obviously not a living robin in the shot (and it so easily could have been) - Lynch speaks coyly about this, as is his trademark approach, but it's pretty apparent that he intended for us the audience to realise that the bird is not the genuine article and draw our conclusions as to why from it. |
Was the 'Just You and I' scene in TP ironic? I don't think so.
| My view is that the "Just You and I" scene is played 75% for humour, a straight-up, fully-paid one-way ticket to Cheeseville and as that it is, indeed, very funny. But, as is so often with Lynch, a scene can play two or more emotions at once and serve more than one purpose. The secondary purpose of "Just You and I" is a visual exposition to show that Donna detects that there's a mutual attraction between James and Maddy. So, in short, this is a perfectly good scene and if you accept it's obvious (to me at least) humorous intent then it's one of the shows highlights.
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| 23. Friday, April 29, 2011 1:06 AM |
| Exy |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: QUOTE: | QUOTE:The main embarrassing bits are Sandy's description of her dream and that phony robin at the end. |
I've always taken both the examples you cite as intended to be deliberately ironic and never intended to be anything other than hokey. Come on, this is Lynch 101 here, isn't the fact it's not a real robin a clear indication that writer/director is fully aware that the "American Dream" is just that, a dream not a reality for most people?
|
Sometimes it seems too easy to hedge one's bets with the suggestion that one's actually being 'ironic', and thereby denying criticism that way.
|
Wow, these quotes are like Russian Dolls! I wasn't hedging my bets when I said 'ironic' (are the inverted commas here tautological?) Sandy's dream is ironic in the way it is written and performed and shot in front of the illuminated stained glass windows of the church and the organ swell in Badalamenti’s score; this is an overegged pudding and something clearly not to be taken literally but recognised as a massive exaggeration. The robin is clearly mechanical, albeit probably a stuffed real live robin at one point, it is obviously not a living robin in the shot (and it so easily could have been) - Lynch speaks coyly about this, as is his trademark approach, but it's pretty apparent that he intended for us the audience to realise that the bird is not the genuine article and draw our conclusions as to why from it. |
Was the 'Just You and I' scene in TP ironic? I don't think so.
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My view is that the "Just You and I" scene is played 75% for humour, a straight-up, fully-paid one-way ticket to Cheeseville and as that it is, indeed, very funny. But, as is so often with Lynch, a scene can play two or more emotions at once and serve more than one purpose. The secondary purpose of "Just You and I" is non-verbal exposition to show that Donna detects that there's a mutual attraction between James and Maddy. So, in short, this is a perfectly good scene and if you accept it's obvious (to me at least) humorous intent then it's one of the shows highlights.
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| 24. Sunday, May 1, 2011 8:46 PM |
| BOB1 |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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QUOTE:I completely agree Robin. Lynch really does have trouble with representations of the good.
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For a contrast, I completely disagree  It's actually his trademark for me, though the underrated one - Lynch in most of his films goes a step further than just showing the dark side and the horror. He really believes in goodness and while more or less undisputably he has achieved some mastery in showing hell, he doesn't stop there, for which thanks goodness. The bright side of life may be treated with irony here and there - although I'd argue that Blue Velvet's clean lawns and merry firemen are not meant to be the real goodness, it's rather a fake make-up of the ritten inside - but nevertheless it is there. The only films where I can't really find it, are Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, but is it just by accident that it was between these two films that he made Straight Story? And I do like these "goodness" moments, also Sandy's dream, I believe in their sincerity and in what they say and whether cheesy or not, I find them powerful (not to mention the ending of FWWM!).
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| 25. Sunday, May 1, 2011 8:48 PM |
| BOB1 |
RE: So Blue Velvet |
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By the way, Booth, I agree about Blue Velvet being Lynch's best - but I remember you used to be the one to say that Lost Highway was your favourite? Why the change if I may ask?
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