Just one last post to make myself sick before watching some upbeat Mad TV...

http://moonbatmedia.com/hizb_ut_tahrir_190806/

I've been to more than one loud protest, rally, march and even though the crowds have not expressed my own personal views, it has not made me as angry as watching these videos and looking at these photographs.  Having spent a lot of time in London in the swinging 70s, makes it all the more disheartening and I wonder how it would be to approach the throngs with their orange signs had I been on Edgeware Road today near the American Embassy. 

Not to sound too much like a 1938ist but I have a funny little old yellow book in my library called "Our Battle."  It was written in 1938 by a Dutch immigrant.  He was driven to write "one man's answer to "Mein Kampf" after watching a rally of Nazis marching through the streets of Manhattan.  It would be years before the US listened to Van Loon. 

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

LR - the protesters were "vindicated?" Uhm....ok....I don't think anything has shaken loose enough, and we haven't gotten far enough away from the Iraq War, for anyone to be leaning back in their chair and happily announce "vindication." Just as there were plenty of comments by Bush/Blair that never happened, there were also plenty of comments made by the anti-crowd that never happened either. There's been plenty of comments on both sides declaring something will happen, but the reality is that not enough time has passed to determine what the final result will be. Hmmm...now that I'm thinking about it - I don't recall much news coming out of Iraq lately.....I heard of a soldier or two dying this past week but that was about it.

In any case that's offtopic: Susan, here's another exciting page for you with protesters - this one out of San Francisco:

http://www.zombietime.com/stop_the_us_israeli_war_8_12_2006/

But in contrast here's some "pro-Israel" rally - http://www.zombietime.com/solidarity_with_israel/ (signs are less angry, aren't they?)

This site really has some great pictures from San Franscisco rallies - http://www.zombietime.com/ 

Jordan .

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Jordan, seriously, have a reality check. Take a look at the state of the place

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5052138.stm

I don't believe its off topic, Susan is mentioning her disgust that people are out protesting against US/UK foreign policy, the Iraq disaster is a central feature of our governments' foreign policy.

Hello, those people protesting are calling for a caliphite to be established in the U K under sharia law. That is what the protesters are saying, that's what the signs say !!  "Nothing wrong with that." right Lets ?

Have fun, I'm sure they appreciate your help Lets. I'm sure they will be " vindicated". Nice bunch of folks you are in lock step with. Unbelievable.

Its ironic that these 'good' people enjoy the freedom of speech (in the UK) to promote their desire for a religious superstate that tolerates no freedom of speech... not to mention the oppression of women, a legal system from the dark ages and the right to wipeout Israel. Sounds fun doesn't it?

I'm so glad I'm several thousand miles away from the UK right now. 

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Raymond pretty much said what I was thinking. It's really scary how so many people don't realize what many protesters are suggesting the govt actually do (of course they would know that if it was a bunch of GOP protesters). How many ANSWER supporters realize that they are backed by Socialists with beliefs that are very Communist in nature (for the record - I - and I think Raymond - posted this info a few years ago).

In any case - not sure how those facts and figures show "vindication" of anything YET. The "reality check" is that we are not far enough away from the Iraq War and all the problems going on there for the past few years won't be fixed in a few more. In the run-up to the war, the anti-war crowd was crying about WMDs being used on soldiers - never happened (still find that argument ironic when I hear people say that Bush lied and then remember that argument as to why we shouldn't go into Iraq). Quagmire-shmagmire. Every post-war place is a "quagmire" after a war. The only vindication the anti-war crowd has is the WMD issue, and even not so much because of the argument above. We need another handful of years before anyone can talk about vindication.

Jordan .

Poor Jordan. He needs a reality check so badly.  An example of the projection of one's shortcomings to someone on the other side of an argument ?  What this thread has shown is the need for a reality check alright--somewhere.   The idea that some on the left are so blinded by a hatred of the anti terror campaign that they have become absurd in their arguments. Even disclosing a self loathing for their own ethnicity as they prostrate themselves in supplication to the Islamists.  Stockholm syndrome, without any actual detention, on a wide scale ? This embrace of dhimitude is offputting and speaks directly to western weakness.

At the core of the peace/Cindy Sheehan approach : Let's talk nice, give them all they demand, and then those bad men will go away.  fingers crossed.

Just so I'm clear, James, please tell me one thing. When you watched and listened to the videos that I linked above, did YOU not feel the slightest disgust? Or, if not something so harsh as "disgust," was there any sense of repulsion you felt? How about "disquiet?" Not the slightest "unsettling" emotions?

Or was it to you simply a peaceable group protesting against US/UK foreign policy?

Hehe, "foreign policy." That reminds me of an argument people have in this country about our Civil War. Time was it was pretty much accepted and taught that the Civil War was about slavery. The North was against it. The South was for it. In the simplest terms, but that pretty much expresses the essence. The revisionists claimed no, it wasn't about slavery at all; it was about "states rights." Which particular right was the South not willing to relinguish? The right to buy and sell slaves.

"Foreign Policy" is that same sort of code expression as States Rights. Not too specific but they both sound reasonable.  From the POV of the mob in front of the American Embassy yesterday and their fellow travelers around the world, US foreign policy begins in the center of a concentric circle outward from a little sliver of a land in the Middle East. There in the middle of what this crowd would have as the strongest expression of their Ummah -- their self-expressed desired "Caliphate" -- are 6 million pesky Jews who are not in subservient Dhimmi status. Better still, out of "Palestine." Or dead. ANY US OR UK PRESENCE ANYWHERE IN THE MUSLIM WORLD IS AGAINST THEIR "FOREIGN POLICY" DESIRES. Can't you read their signs??? Can't you hear their words???? And if you think the time won't come where the stats switch in London or in Paris or in Sweden -- where Muslims are the greater percentage of the population -- then I guess it's not much of a problem at all short of the occasional blocked sidewalk near Edgeware Road. They probably pick up their trash.

Tho other dispute with the US in the Middle East over "foreign policy" has to do with their belief that the US is not an "honest broker" in the region - code for the US not playing moral equivalency between an established democracy and loosely affiliated terrorist groups who can't determine who's in charge on any given day.

So, why you may find common cause between the millions of Brits who marched for "peace" back in 2003 wishing to link the philosophies of that group of British peaceniks to that of the "We Are Hezbollah" marchers yesterday, I think you are mistaken. Perhaps if asked the overreaching non-defined question, "Do you support US/UK foreign policy?" they would all answer in the negative. That is where the faulty logic sets in. That does not make them brothers and sisters in the jihad, so to speak.

I really do wonder about your feelings and thoughts on that protest, James. I visualize you sitting at home back in Northern Ireland. I imagine you watching a BBC newscast covering the protest march. And I wonder, did your heart not flutter a teeny little bit? Did you not contemplate what it might mean five or ten years down the line with the size of this angry anti-UK anti-US group growing, their actions becoming further emboldened, and well... you tell me. Did it do NOTHING to you deep inside to elicit the slightest icky sticky feeling? Not one brief shining moment of "Holy crap!" Or did you merely say to yourself, "Oh great. I can just imagine the fascist overreaction Susan's going to have to this peaceful protest."

Solutions to the problem on the streets of London? Je ne c'est pas. Clearly, I don't have the answer but I feel with all my head and heart that the status quo will bring more and worse results. Ray's suggestion to take back passports for those advocating the overthrow of the government. But even that is limited to those who are not native born. Many of these people have UK passports already and there's nowhere to deport them. Another problem with deportation is that often the country whence they originate do not want to accept troublemakers. And Australia isn't one big empty prison anymore.

But once again, wait five years, ten years -- the numbers of native born Brits who prefer Sharia, a worldwide Ummah and a Caliphate to British rule may be the majority. Will you still claim they were just "peaceful protestors?"

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I'm just sick of people who believe in no freedom of speech telling us how to run our country.

IMO the UK (and most of Western Europe) are sleepwalking their way towards a very dark future. A future that is not-so-distant and much more lifestyle threatening than the odd delay at Heathrow Airport.

We need some tough action against those inciting hatred in our own backyard and quick.  

Oh yes, and I'm a liberal, ex-Muslim!  

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Jordan .

I'm not a lefty liberal i'm a human. I don't subscribe to the politics of fear. The fear is not real for us in the west it is real for those in countries whereupon our dodgy, overstretched rationale is causing widespread destruction and disregard for the sanctity of homes, lives and livelihoods.  My own christian values are irreconcilable with what is happening in my name. Sorry.

You are absolutely correct, Raymond. Under a UK based caliphate, those friendly christian folk would get a new and extra-special role in society as dhimmis.

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

James, perhaps you're feeling outnumbered here.  Maybe that's why you ignored my question.  "Politics of fear" (which sounds a lot like "foreign policy" or "states rights" -- an non-definitive blob) aside, I asked about YOUR gut reaction to watching the videos of Edgeware Road.

BTW, I am not endorsing a regressive fear mode.  I am only trying to find the point of reality.  What is the point at which we recognize that there IS a threat that is greater than that of Bush and his rectum-concealed side-kick, Blair.  Or is it merely a phantom hyped up to induce fear?  To what end?  Rallying the masses?  That doesn't seem to be working out too well. 

I suggest that there is a deep deep reluctance to take the threat seriously because we in the western world have lived for many years just going about our business and we don't like the idea of having to worry about being blown out of our seats whether on a commercial flight, a train, at our desks at work, or while shopping in a mall or dining in a pizzaria or dancing in a disco.  Dammit!  Now leave me alone.  It's September 10 2001 in my mind and I don't want to hear your "fear mongering."  Bu$h sucks.  And so does Halliburton. 

Looking forward to a response to my question posed way up above and within this post.  I really cannot imagine that in some corner of your brain you too do not speculate on whether the Edgeware mob represents something worthy of concern.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Yep, feeling outnumbered indeed. I can't watch the video because my home PC is broke and i have to use another computer that has no speakers. But, if what i'm guessing is this guy is spouting a load of extremist garbage then yes you're right it does unsettle me .

Firebrand clerics thrive in this climate of fear. Where I differ with yourselves is that I don't see the assymtery of righteousness that you all see. I see fear / hatred/ murder / etc. on both sides. When we perpetuate this climate of terror by supporting crimes in far off lands that we wouldn't stand for at home, I see the where the lifeblood that feeds such extremism comes from. And Raymond - you're an idiot.

LR - no one has called you names, so let's keep it that way, please.

Jordan .

LR - selective reading, perhaps? Ray said "Better than residing up the rectum of Nasrahlla and those fine folks you admire Lets, those "heros" demostrating in front of the U S Embassy yesterday- your choice for ah neighbors. "

There's a bunch you missed there.  

Jordan .

Your very first post was "Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. Not that it will change much however. Millions of people lined the streets of London to protest against the Iraq war. Thye government simply ignored their views. Even though their stance has been vindicated, Blair still resides somewhere up George W's rectum. Is that democracy Susan? Even you can surely see where the facist label is coming from?"

You basically said that there is "nothing wrong" with a peaceful protest - a protest that in the end supports the end of the basic way of life in Western Civilization and supports everything that others said above. You then went on to say "Not that it will change much however" which sounds like you are disappointed nothing will change esp when you compare it to the Iraq War and how those demonstrations changed nothing. You then went on to say that because nothing changed that this is where the "facist label" originates because "democracy" isn't working (as if suddenly when millions are upset that people should change course).

Let's make some corrections. NO "DEMOCRATIC" COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS A TRUE DEMOCRACY - WE ARE CALLED REPUBLICS. And Republics don't work like DEMOCRACIES where everyone gets a say and that suddenly when one million people are swayed by images on TV that we should suddenly change course (thank God!). 

Just because a bunch of people protest doesn't mean it should sway govt to change course. Just because it doesn't sway govt to change doesn't equate it to "facism." That's one huge illogical jump.

Jordan .