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51. Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:07 PM
coolspringsj RE: 1,000 and Counting


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*glances upward*

Post of the day


"Harry, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot, black coffee. Like this."  -Dale Cooper

 
52. Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:03 PM
Booth RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE: i'm going to fart on your boner i'm going to fart right on it are you ready?!!



    /

 
53. Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:04 PM
Raymond RE: 1,000 and Counting


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Excuse me taking the thread off topic... and just cap off my links knowledge.

A number topside- is a hyper link? I could learn to make hyperlinks. 

If a regular bottom link is too long, you shrink it at tinyurl. ( Oh I'm sure Booth could have a rejoinder for this sentence.) 

Hey, any one of you notice the different procedures and layouts with a new browser. What browser(s) do you use? Thanks,

6               6                 6                   6                        6

The dangerous neighborhood around Gaza has trickled off. What happens in 8 months with new Iranian rocketry ?

 
54. Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:12 PM
Booth RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:

A number topside- is a hyper link? I could learn to make hyperlinks. 

If a regular bottom link is too long, you shrink it at tinyurl. ( Oh I'm sure Booth could have a rejoinder for this sentence.)

Anything you click on that takes you elsewhere is a link.
It's easy to write a link, or you could use the link buttons in the post toolbar.
<a xhref="http://www.2000revue.com/community/index.cfm">This is a link</a> If I edit this post it will turn into a real link, and remove the x in front of href

Tinyurl is annoying.

 
55. Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:00 PM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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Geez, what did I miss on Page 2???!!! 

Okie dokie, if I can leave behind Booth's hard-on and Nef's farting, and return to the subject ...

This is from Bret Stephens of the Wall Street Journal regarding the result of this "war."

1.  Israel has reestablished a reputation for invincibility tarnished in the 2006 war with Hezbollah.  

2.  They bloodied and humiliated Hamas while taking few casualties.

3.  They called overdue international attention to the tunnels Hamas uses to smuggle its arsenal

4.  With the unilateral cease-fire they put the onus to end the violence squarely back on Hamas's shoulders.

He adds that a senior Israeli military official "seems at ease that the Palestinians will remain bifurcated between Hamastan and Fatahland for many years more the way Germany was divided during the Cold War.  The idea is that a Haas state in Gaza - somehow deterred from mischief -- could become a kind of negative example to the Palestinians of the West Bank, somewhat in the way East Germany served West Germany as a monument to everything that was wrong with communism.

"This leads the official to his second remarkable comment, after I ask whether Israel deliberately chose not to kill Ismail Haniyeh, the elected Palestinian prime minister and Hamas's political leader in Gaza.  'Israel tried to target people from the security apparatus and military wing,' he answers.  'At this moment, we prefer that the less radical wing will take over.'"

Read the rest here if you have any interest in the strategic actions taken by Israel.  It's a chess game and Israel is approaching a check situation although the check mate may be forever elusive.

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
56. Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:56 AM
jordan RE: 1,000 and Counting

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This is more in response to the subject of this thread....

Gazan doctor says death toll inflated...

A couple of quotes from the article:

"The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article.

...

A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."

-----

story may be wrong, and it might be 1000+.....or the 1000+ number if just politics. UN and Red Cross are also saying it was over 1000.


Jordan .

 
57. Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:02 AM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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Now Jordan, are you suggesting that the Palestinian news sources would exaggerate deaths?  Civilian deaths?  Women-and-children deaths??? 

That's shocking.  Of course the United Nations echoed those figures.  Also shocking.

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
58. Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:18 AM
Nefud RE: 1,000 and Counting


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ynetnews is an extension of israel's largest newspaper, and no other news sites are carrying this

edit:  from the wiki:

Ynetnews is an English language Israel news and content website operated by Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel’s most-read newspaper, and the Hebrew Israel news portal, Ynet. The Yedioth Group also owns stocks in the Israeli TV Channel "Channel 2"; "HOT", the Cable TV company, weekly local newspapers, magazines, and other non-media companies. Ynetnews editor, Yon Feder, is being appointed to be editor of Yedioth Ahronoth.

yeah i'll be waiting for a less-biased source on this

 
59. Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:25 AM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:ynetnews is an extension of israel's largest newspaper, and no other news sites are carrying this

 

 There are currently two main players in this story, Nefud.  Gaza's Hamas.  Israeli IDF.  The foreign media who have now entered Gaza to write their anecdotal tales, take photos of rubble and teddy bears, and to interview the locals will hear the stories we've heard all along.  Remember Jenin.  Remember li'l Mohammed el Dura. Non-contextual imagery is wildly proliferated with truth as the casualty.
 
The Israeli press will present a variety of views from Haaretz to Jerusalem Post to Debka and YNet.  You as an impartial reader and observer of international affairs are free to draw your own conclusion about whose views may be more accurate.  Just make sure you do check out the Israeli press because you will want a full hearing of both sides of the story -- not just the cacaphonous echo chamber of sycophants -- before drawing a conclusion.

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
60. Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:28 AM
Nefud RE: 1,000 and Counting


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well clearly. when i say i want a less-biased source i didn't mean hamas itself or msnbc or something crazy. i'm saying "well ynetnews clearly has something a stake here, let's see if the guardian UK website or der spiegel or the wall street journal run with this."

 
61. Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:42 AM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:well clearly. when i say i want a less-biased source i didn't mean hamas itself or msnbc or something crazy. i'm saying "well ynetnews clearly has something a stake here, let's see if the guardian UK website or der spiegel or the wall street journal run with this."


You simply have to read the Israeli press for reasons I stated above. Guardian UK  and Der Spiegel fall more into the CEC category I cited above.  And the BBC. 

I've never done so but I think it would be interesting to check out all the articles and reporting done from the sites of truly genocidal regimes by these erstwhile establishments.  Somalia, Sudan, Congo, Rwanda come to mind.  Or as Robert Baer of CIA fame (and George Clooney imitation) used to say, nobody wants the diarreah duty.  It is far easier to critique Israel and inflate their shortcomings to ridiculously false proportions in order to show your everyman creds as the honorable supporter of the poor, oppressed underdog.

Reminds me of a cartoon.  Man walks into a psychiatrist's office...

Susan

 PS just caught your mention of the WSJ.  Yes, by all means read that!


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
62. Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:59 AM
Nefud RE: 1,000 and Counting


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why shouldn't i read them all?

 
63. Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:01 PM
jordan RE: 1,000 and Counting

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Keep in mind that this newspaper is only reporting what an Italian newspaper has already reported. First paragraph from the article above:

"Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday"

http://www.corriere.it/

someone who knows italian can try and find the article. I searched the english version of the site with no luck.


Jordan .

 
64. Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:06 PM
Nefud RE: 1,000 and Counting


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haha damn this information society. "we can trace this story, we just have to speak all the languages ever"

 
65. Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:06 PM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:why shouldn't i read them all?

 

Well, you will do what you will do.  It's just that many of these sources (BBC, Guardian, SF Chronicle, LA Times, por ejemplo) are part of the journalistic rat pack consortium.  Hence the echo chamber.  Read 'em all and see if you can find a variety of opinions. I find a BBC story the equivalent of reading Al Jazeera.  Fine.  I force myself  through them repetitive and non-enlightening though they tend to me, filled with pitchers of woe and anecdotal stories of children.  Myself, I often wonder where childhood ends in these stories.  18 years?  25? 

But sure, read 'em all.  Just throw in a mix of Israeli press, the WSJ and maybe the American Thinker while you're at it.  Or my personal fave MEMRI which is only a monitoring and translation of the Arab-Middle Eastern press you will NEVER otherwise read unless you're fluent in Arabic or Farsi.  

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
66. Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:14 PM
Nefud RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:

Well, you will do what you will do.  It's just that many of these sources (BBC, Guardian, SF Chronicle, LA Times, por ejemplo) are part of the journalistic rat pack consortium.  Hence the echo chamber.  Read 'em all and see if you can find a variety of opinions. I find a BBC story the equivalent of reading Al Jazeera.  Fine.  I force myself  through them repetitive and non-enlightening though they tend to me, filled with pitchers of woe and anecdotal stories of children.  Myself, I often wonder where childhood ends in these stories.  18 years?  25? 

But sure, read 'em all.  Just throw in a mix of Israeli press, the WSJ and maybe the American Thinker while you're at it.  Or my personal fave MEMRI which is only a monitoring and translation of the Arab-Middle Eastern press you will NEVER otherwise read unless you're fluent in Arabic or Farsi.  

Susan


 how, exactly, is one supposed to tell the difference between "i should read this story which is different from the mainstream media because the mainstream media is a lying liberal echo chamber" and "i should listen to any minority voice staws i can grasp at out of sheer contraryness"

 
67. Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:30 PM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:
QUOTE:

Well, you will do what you will do.  It's just that many of these sources (BBC, Guardian, SF Chronicle, LA Times, por ejemplo) are part of the journalistic rat pack consortium.  Hence the echo chamber.  Read 'em all and see if you can find a variety of opinions. I find a BBC story the equivalent of reading Al Jazeera.  Fine.  I force myself  through them repetitive and non-enlightening though they tend to me, filled with pitchers of woe and anecdotal stories of children.  Myself, I often wonder where childhood ends in these stories.  18 years?  25? 

But sure, read 'em all.  Just throw in a mix of Israeli press, the WSJ and maybe the American Thinker while you're at it.  Or my personal fave MEMRI which is only a monitoring and translation of the Arab-Middle Eastern press you will NEVER otherwise read unless you're fluent in Arabic or Farsi.  

Susan


 how, exactly, is one supposed to tell the difference between "i should read this story which is different from the mainstream media because the mainstream media is a lying liberal echo chamber" and "i should listen to any minority voice staws i can grasp at out of sheer contraryness"


 Now, that is a mischaracterization of what I wrote and what I believe, Nefud.  I never said "mainstream media" probably because I wouldn't consider BBC in that category.  I never said "lying liberal" when referencing echo chambers nor do I imply that. 

If you are satisfied with the current breed of foreign journalists then we differ there.  I happen to believe that there is a pack mentality -- not that they are "lying" or merely liberal.  Liberal isn't the problem.  That is a self-description of most journalists and so be it.  The problem is more in the choice of being an appendage of a party line.  Piling on with the same old same old.  They may not be lying.  They are most likely not lying when they report what so-and-so said about what happened within their family home where moms and pops and the innocent kidlettes were eating dinner or playing on the rooftops when suddenly the evil Israelis came through shooting the woman point blank in the foreheads (this is not an invention on my part for emphasis either -- this is part of a reported tale).   

At a certain point you need to pull back from the images.  Pull back from the anecdotal first person stories -- "tell me what happened here, sir."  Ask yourself how the interviewee knows who did what.  Ask yourself who the person is as generic European reporter tramps through the rubble looking for someone to speak to in English.  

There is not much the beleagured Gazans have to fall back on outside of an intense and intrenched  hatred of Israelis and secondarily on a day to day basis, the disgust and frustration with the monsters who have led them to this always untenable position of loser. 

Oh well.  

The real stories that do more than what Picasso describes as art -- "the lie that expresses the truth" -- is to suss out the facts from zooming in and panning out with a historic view both near and distant and then -- then -- think about what might be the most accurate total picture.  I propose it is not to be found on BBC.  Which is to say that I have not stated anything like what you wrote above.

 Choosing the most credible sources requires a long term dedication to noting names of reporters whose credibility withstands scrutiny over time.  They do exist.  But they are few and far between and everyone has a bloggayadayada besmirching the honor of the best of the Fourth Estate.

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
68. Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:32 PM
Nefud RE: 1,000 and Counting


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lookit all dem words

 
69. Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:53 PM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:

lookit all dem words


 Wow!  Right you are.  An completely unedited too. 

 

Susan, the Queen of Brevity


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
70. Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:13 AM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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Israel pulls out of Gaza.  The bombing, shooting, tank incursions stop. For the time being anyhow.  The posts and the outrage take a rest as well.  But I found this article today from the Jerusalem Post from a 'guest columnist' by the name of Denis Maceoin. Check out his wikipedia bonifides for evidence of bias, but mostly for his journey to his fully informed opinions.  Bravo to Maceoin and may his tribe increase throughout the thinking world. 

Susan

The Jerusalem Post Internet Edition
Guest Columnist: Marching for Hamas
Jan. 22, 2009
DENIS MACEOIN , THE JERUSALEM POST


Hamas is a bully aided by a bigger bully, Iran. And, just as strident and threatening human bullies get away with their aggression so long as no one calls their bluff, so Hamas has been getting away with murder and torture because the UN and many states won't call its two-faced self-portrayal as the victim in the piece. In the struggle to take over Gaza from Fatah, it went on a rampage that killed hundreds of Palestinians. Even during this most recent assault, in early January, it executed Fatah members for violating their house arrest. A few weeks ago, Hamas determined to hurt yet more of its compatriots by introducing Islamic hudud punishments to the Strip, from amputations and stonings, to crucifixions and hangings.

Like all bullies, it likes to taunt its victims. It did just that for years after Israel left Gaza, firing rockets every day into towns like Sderot or Netivot. No one who has dismissed these rockets as harmless homemade toys has ever had the guts to spend a few weeks in Sderot, scurrying from shelter to shelter. And, oh yes, it also built up an arsenal (supplied by Iran) of Grad missiles that certainly aren't anybody's toys.

Like all bullies, Hamas likes to make boastful threats. Its 1988 Covenant is replete with them. It threatens to destroy the State of Israel by violence and violence alone. It says it will never accept the work of conferences or peacemakers, and only jihad will solve its problems. Meanwhile, the Palestinians see their lives drained away in a culture that embraces death and martyrdom, their children exposed to a steady diet of military training and preparation for violent death as suicide bombers.

Even if the Palestinians want peace, Hamas won't let them have it, because Hamas knows best, and jihad "is the only solution." Don't believe me, read the Covenant. It likes nothing better than killing Jews, and the bigger bully in Teheran thinks that's a damn fine thing too. No one says a word, because the UN is dominated by the Islamic states, and the Western governments know where the oil comes from, and nobody likes the Jews much anyway. The people calling for the end of Israel while they march on the streets of London and Dublin aren't all Muslims by any means.

There can be no greater indication of this boastfulness than what has happened in recent days. Having taken a heavy battering from Israel, Hamas now proclaims a "great victory," and its supporters dance in the ruined streets of Gaza, drunk on their own demagoguery. For all its bluster, Hamas, like all bullies, is a coward at heart. Watch those films of Hamas gunmen dragging screaming children along with them to act as human shields, watch how they fire from behind the little ones, knowing no Israeli soldier will fire back. And even as they put their own children's lives at risk, they shout to high heaven that the Israelis are Nazis and the Jews are child-killers. This blatant pornography spreads through the Western media, and people never once ask "what does this look like from the other side," because they are addicted to the comforting news that the Yids are baby-killers as they'd always known, that they do poison wells, that no Christian child is safe come Passover. Hamas has become proficient at resurrecting the blood libel, just as its fighters use the Nazi salute, just as their predecessor in the 1930s and '40s, Haj Amin al-Husseini, conferred with Hitler about building death camps in Palestine and raised a division of SS troops in Bosnia to fight for the Reich.

We watch The Diary of Anne Frank on television, and some of us attend Holocaust Remembrance Day events, and others pay lip service to Jewish victimhood; we like our Jews emaciated and helpless under the SS boot. But the moment real Jews stand up and show themselves the stronger for all their deaths, it awakens an atavistic fear, and people recoil from them. Jews in uniform, how unseemly. Jews beating the bully, how unheard of. Jews with their own state, what upstarts.

IN MY home country of Ireland, we glamorize the great nationalist heroes who rebelled against the bullying forces of imperial Britain in the uprising of Easter Sunday 1916. In France, they venerate the heroes of the Resistance against the occupying forces of Nazi Germany. In Spain, they have not ceased to heap praise on those who fought against the forces of fascist bullies and lost. To stand up against an enemy bent on your destruction is everywhere counted an act of bravery. But not when it comes to Israel. In 1948 and 1967 and 1973 and 2006, Israel fought off overwhelming forces who made no secret of their plans for an imminent massacre of the Jews. But nobody now seems to care, no one lauds the courage the Israelis displayed, and no one praises the extraordinary restraint they showed in victory.


In a bizarre reversal of all their commitment to human rights and the struggle of men and women for independence and self-determination, the European Left has chosen again and again to side with the bullies and to condemn a small nation struggling to survive in a hostile neighborhood. It is all self-contradictory: The Left supports gay rights, yet attacks the only country in the Middle East where gay rights are enshrined in law. Hamas makes death the punishment for being gay, but "we are all Hamas now." Iran hangs gays, but it is praised as an agent of anti-imperialism, and allowed to get on with its job of stoning women and executing dissidents and members of religious minorities. If UK Premier Gordon Brown swore to wipe France from the face of the earth, he would become a pariah among nations. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad threatens to do that to Israel and is invited to speak to the UN General Assembly

Israel guarantees civil liberties to all its citizens, Jew or Arab alike, but it is dubbed "an apartheid state"; Hamas, ever the bully, kills its opponents and denies the rest the most basic rights, but we march on behalf of Hamas. The Left prefers the bully because the bully represents a finger in the face of the establishment? Almost no one on the Left has any understanding of militant Islam. Their politics is a politics of gesture, where wearing a keffiyeh is cool but understanding its symbolism is too much effort even for intellectuals.

I have personally had enough of it all. The whining double standards, the blatant lies, the way their leaders have forced Palestinians to suffer for 60 years because peace and compromise aren't in their vocabulary and because they won't settle for anything but total victory. Painful as it was, in the 1920s Ireland created a republic by compromising on the status of the North. Ireland subsequently became a prosperous country and, in due course, one of the hottest economies in the world. When the Israelis left Gaza in 2005, they left state-of-the-art greenhouses to form the basis for a thriving economy. Hamas destroyed them to the last pane of glass. Why? Because they had been Jewish greenhouses.
 

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
71. Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:45 PM
bio_hazard RE: 1,000 and Counting


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Did anyone see the 60 Minutes on Israel/Palestine tonight?  It was not very hopeful...  The report basically suggested that a two-state solution was unlikely to work.  Currently the west bank is pretty much choked by settlements and checkpoints.  Even if the Israeli gov't decided to remove enough Israeli settlers to make a contiguous west bank, the settlers themselves, and possibly the Israeli military, would not allow this. 

There was a good line from one of the interviews "You can't unscramble the egg" 

 

 
72. Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:18 PM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:

Did anyone see the 60 Minutes on Israel/Palestine tonight?  It was not very hopeful...  The report basically suggested that a two-state solution was unlikely to work.  Currently the west bank is pretty much choked by settlements and checkpoints.  Even if the Israeli gov't decided to remove enough Israeli settlers to make a contiguous west bank, the settlers themselves, and possibly the Israeli military, would not allow this. 

There was a good line from one of the interviews "You can't unscramble the egg" 

 

While that 60 Minutes piece had a few interesting selections of interview subjects and a few interesting visuals, it was an example of the anti-Israeli bias I've spoken about.  Having one mannish settler woman rambling on as if she were the voice of some greater Israeli movement opposite the calm, measured voice of a Palestinian doctor was  designed to put a representative human face to the both sides of the Israeli-Arab conflict.  Throw in a couple of lines from Livni (whom, I believe, will soon be reduced to a more marginal governmental position after Netanyahu again becomes PM) with her scowling "give me a break" minimal response, was Bob Simon showing us how he sought out the views of all sides -- the people of Israel (okay the 'settlers'), the government and the Palestinians.

There's an old old Jewish joke about the guy who's stranded on a desert island for 20 years before being rescued.  When his rescuers come ashore they notice that he has built two synagogues on the island.  Startled by this, they ask him why one lone Jew would need two houses of worship.  "One is for my worship and the other is one I'd never in my life step foot in."  Point being, the Jews recognize the reality of their inner-disputes as a part of the greater culture.  Find two Jews - find three opinions, as the saying goes. 

If this 60 Minutes segment were the sole basis on which to make a judgment call , there certainly wouldn't be too many who would fall on the Israeli side.  The propaganda machine trudges on and Bob Simon plays the role of unbiased journalist just looking for the elusive Truth.  Ah, 60 Minutes.  Tick tick tick.  Sigh.  As if anything can be summed up in a 13 minute segment. 

Susan

PS For a taste of the regular television diet that is piled onto Middle Eastern Muslims' plates, check out this typical historical perspective of the Jews and their two world wars .  Imagine THIS as a part of your education and your parents' education over the course of generations.  Then imagine your perspective.

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
73. Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:28 AM
bio_hazard RE: 1,000 and Counting


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Even the Onion hates jews...

 

http://www.theonion.com/content/point/the_israeli_conflict_is_far_too

 
74. Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:38 PM
Booth RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:

Even the Onion hates jews...

 

http://www.theonion.com/content/point/the_israeli_conflict_is_far_too

Opening this link in s a new tab makes the headline read: "the israeli conflict is far too nua..."
the rest is of course "...nced", but I read it as "...rt"

 
75. Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:51 PM
nuart RE: 1,000 and Counting


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QUOTE:
QUOTE:

Even the Onion hates jews...

 

http://www.theonion.com/content/point/the_israeli_conflict_is_far_too

Opening this link in s a new tab makes the headline read: "the israeli conflict is far too nua..."
the rest is of course "...nced", but I read it as "...rt"

Haha, that's about right! 


The first part of the Onion (I'd never read that website before...) reminded me of Larry's Kroger's term paper.  Time for a little levity.

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“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 

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