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| 76. Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:48 PM |
| bio_hazard |
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New to the Onion?  Well, I guess that was my good deed for the day! It's hit or miss, but usually the headlines are at least worth a chuckle. The videos are a fairly new feature- some of them are scary-good. The old Bush radio addresses were also pretty classic... And it might be worth looking up the Jim Anchower guest columns...
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| 77. Sunday, February 1, 2009 2:17 PM |
| nuart |
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Follow-up article re/early claims. These things often result in a fuller explanation after the smoke clears but the international press generally has moved on by then being primarily interested in covering stories that validate their preconceived notions. It's in the details, as usual. Susan
 UN Admits: IDF Didn't Hit School Shevat 7, 5769, 01 February 09 01:01 by Maayana Miskin (IsraelNN.com) During the Cast Lead operation in Gaza, IDF tank fire near a United Nations school in Gaza was blamed for the deaths of dozens of civilians who had taken refuge in the building. The incident became one of the most highly publicized attacks in the war, and led to heavy international criticism. Recent reports suggest that the incident was not accurately portrayed by senior U.N. officials. John Ging, the director of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza, spoke to the Toronto Globe and Mail l ast week and agreed that no shell had actually struck the school building. Ging said he had never claimed that the school itself was hit, and he blamed Israel for confusion over where the strike took place. Shortly after the alleged attack, Ging harshly criticized Israel for firing near the school, saying he had given the exact coordinates of the compound to the IDF. He charged that the IDF had failed to avoid hitting the building. While admitting that Israeli fire had not hit the school compound, Ging insisted it made little difference. “Forty-one innocent people were killed in the street... The State of Israel still has to answer for that,” he said. While many Israel news outlets reported that the strike had taken place near the school, several international media networks reported that the UN school building itself was hit. The U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs may have added to the confusion by releasing a report stating that Israeli fire “directly hit two UNRWA schools.” Almost all reports said that the victims were primarily civilians who had fled to the school for shelter – a version of events cast into suspicion by the Globe and Mail report. A teacher who was in the school at the time of the shelling reported that several people within the compound were injured, but that none were killed. Those killed were all outside in the street as the shells were fired, he said. Only three of those killed were students at the school, he added. The teacher did not give his name, explaining that U.N .officials had told staff not to talk to the media. The IDF responded to criticism over the attack by explaining that soldiers were simply responding to terrorist fire and did not mean to hit a civilian area.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 78. Sunday, February 1, 2009 6:31 PM |
| bio_hazard |
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I do see your point, but I think you might want to pick your battles in this kind of thing. The premise that Israel is the victim here depends upon the difference between "a shit-ton of people were killed just outside a UN school and hurt people in the school" vs. "a shit-ton of people were killed in a UN school". The fact that A may be true rather than B seems unlikely to magically sway world opinion, whether reported accurately or not.
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| 79. Sunday, February 1, 2009 8:32 PM |
| nuart |
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| QUOTE: I do see your point, but I think you might want to pick your battles in this kind of thing. The premise that Israel is the victim here depends upon the difference between "a shit-ton of people were killed just outside a UN school and hurt people in the school" vs. "a shit-ton of people were killed in a UN school". The fact that A may be true rather than B seems unlikely to magically sway world opinion, whether reported accurately or not. |
This is one of many examples of the microscopic examinations of Israel, bio. Since this thread was about the latest (but not the last) Gaza incursion, I thought it was worth mentioning especially since the sources were a UNRWA employee and a Toronto reporter. This war story of 40+ deaths has its own nuances such as the UNRWA org itself and whether they are a neutral humanitarian group composed of caring individuals with no grievances toward the existence of Israel. There is also the question of who qualifies as a child? An 18-year-old "fighter"? Who is a civilian? An un-uniformed but armed "militant"? I'm not suggesting "Israel is the victim" in this latest Gaza war. But I believe the following should be factored into any discussion of "ethical warfare" whether it's Israel (and Israel does seem to be everyone's fave country to discuss) or the Congo. Or Algeria. Or Zimbabwe. Or Somalia. A. People are injured and/or die violently in war. To accept the premise of war at all, then we must recognize this is a given. To report on each victim of any war while zooming in on their individual tragedies is to not have a true perspective on the entire picture. Since the UN School became this year's "Jenin Massacre" or "Mohammed El Dura Martyrdom" story, it's relevant to dissect the details forensically AFTER the facts are known. Some of those are in this article.
B. Israel tries a lot harder than most to limit civilian deaths in the course of their wars. Because they are technologically advanced, well-armed and have a stable of Arab collaborators, they are often able to pinpoint their targets within those close quarters. Suspected collaborators are not afforded the mercy they would receive at the Israeli's hands either and in this latest incursion, there were a large number of Arab-on-Arab brutal killings largely unreported by those obsessively monitoring "Israelis' disproportionate response."
C. There are too many incomplete and false stories that go unquestioned when it comes to any defensive actions taken by Israel. Israel and Officialdom of the United States alone are pretty much the sole sources of support throughout the great big world. A world, incidently, that does not scrutinize any other state with such fastitiousness.
I saw another story today that illustrates how Israel stands apart from its neighbors in judging their own mis-actions and taking responsiblity even in a fog of war scenario. In a hundred pages of Googling "Palestinian Man Tried and Convicted of Murdering Israeli in Arab Courtroom," I doubt you'd find a single entry. Not perfect. Just better than most. Not a victim. Never again.
Susan (who oughta get a job with the Israeli consulate...)
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 80. Monday, February 2, 2009 7:52 AM |
| Nefud |
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/01/gaza-israelandthepalestinians "Israel threatens 'disproportionate' response to Palestinian rocket fire" olmert has officially reached cartoon levels of supervillainy. like some cheesy revolution movie such as the Patriot or Battlefied Earth. "sir, there was a small uprising by six of the rebels, resulting in the death of one of our men." "well, it's time for a disproportionate response, round up six.....HUNDRED of them and kill them, kill them allllllll!!!!"
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| 81. Monday, February 2, 2009 10:14 AM |
| nuart |
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Did my book arrive yet? Guess not. Olmert was the major of Jerusalem before becoming second in charge for a new Israeli political party started by then PM Sharon -- Kadima. It was meant as a party to bridge the gap between the conservative Likud (Sharon's party originally) and the more liberal Labor party. Sharon had angered his own party members by leaving Gaza in 2005 when, with the help of the IDF, each and every Jew residing in Gaza was physically removed from his home. Their election win was the first -- and probably the last -- for the nascent Kadima party. Kadima really was Sharon and without Sharon, stands little hope for survival.
Olmert became PM in January (I think) of 2006 (I think) when Ariel Sharon suffered a stroke and ended up in a coma, which is where he remains still today with no chance of recovery. Point being, Olmert was not elected and was not up for the job. And would not have been elected had he run at the top of the ticket. He will soon be out of that job and it will likely be another era of PM Netanyahu, whom you will also likely revile.
You miss the irony of his statement though, as Olmert mocks the international press by using their term "disproportionate." War, a concept you reject from the get-go which renders your opinions on waging it sort of null and void, is not a tennis match. The idea is to vanquish your enemy. Generally speaking the higher the disproportionality, the greater the likelihood of rapid defeat. As in Hiroshima. Nagasaki. As in avoiding invasion of Toyko. Carry that same premise back throughout every major war in history and you'll note similarities. Victors do not do body counts of their enemies and then offer up the same number of their own. You will also note the disproportionality when it comes to prisoner exchanges which routinely take place between Israel and their neighbors. 1000 Palestinians to 1 Israeli is not unusual. Where's the outrage? Sometimes it is one dead Israeli. L'chaim. Susan PS Can you even name any other international war criminals (excluding those from your own country) whose heinous acts approach those of the Israelis? Just curious. No checking wikipedia either. It may say something about your focus if you are unable to delineate the abuses of any other country with as much wrath and detail as you are able with Israel. If only we could do an imaginary play act of a Nefud run Israel and watch and see how many hours or days the state would survive...
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 82. Monday, February 2, 2009 10:48 AM |
| Nefud |
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| QUOTE: You miss the irony of his statement though, as Olmert mocks the international press by using their term "disproportionate."
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hahah if that was actually his intent, then bravo. i'm an american, i'm not used to politicians who are into "subtlety" or "satire"
| QUOTE: War, a concept you reject from the get-go which renders your opinions on waging it sort of null and void, is not a tennis match. The idea is to vanquish your enemy. Generally speaking the higher the disproportionality, the greater the likelihood of rapid defeat. As in Hiroshima. Nagasaki. As in avoiding invasion of Toyko. Carry that same premise back throughout every major war in history and you'll note similarities. Victors do not do body counts of their enemies and then offer up the same number of their own. |
So you're advocating that the israelis win a decisive victory by vanquishing the palestinians in the mass-murder style of dropping nukes on them, or something equally horrific. wiping them off the map. a "final solution" if you will. Bravo. PS Can you even name any other international war criminals (excluding those from your own country) whose heinous acts approach those of the Israelis?
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hirohito, nanking style baby. the treatment of the native americans also comes to mind, and i'm counting those in spite of your caveat because it predates the actual formation of the US. the british raj, as well. edit: wait was i supposed to think of things LESS terrible than israel, but "approaching" how bad israel is? because wwII japan is clearly worse. but i think both indian comparisons work really well. | QUOTE: If only we could do an imaginary play act of a Nefud run Israel and watch and see how many hours or days the state would survive...
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*realizes i'm surrounded on all sides by nations that despise me, and i'm only propped up by the west* *shoots self in bunker*
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| 83. Monday, February 2, 2009 11:17 AM |
| nuart |
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I should have been more specific. I see you only name those big consensus atrocities of the past. (while leaving out Hitler and Mussolini...) But okay. I meant to inquire whether your international war criminal monitoring extends beyond Israel (and the US, remember) to ANY other state you can think of. Again, though, Nefud, although you are entertaining in a certain twisted way, it's hard to carry on a serious discussion when you speak in comic book language. Seriously, the only reason I engage is with the hope that someone reads what I'm writing and thinks 'hmmm' if just for one thought or one moment. If there is anything that I find less appealing in an argument, it is the one that begins with "so what you're saying is..." ("so you're advocating....") but then goes on to spew something back that is completely NOT what I was saying. Or advocating. So can we deal with my words and not your extrapolation of them? If we followed your Nefud-as-Israel suicide strategy, the US might want to take the same course of action being surrounded by those who despise it. Fortunately the world does not operate from the position of the weakest on the earth rolling over and playing dead. And so it goes. Susan PS Did my book arrive?
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 84. Monday, February 2, 2009 11:26 AM |
| Nefud |
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it didn't arrive yet if you weren't pimping the idea of mass murder then please clarify, you really sounded like you want nukes/dresden-style firebombing dropped on gaza
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| 85. Monday, February 2, 2009 12:34 PM |
| nuart |
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| QUOTE: if you weren't pimping the idea of mass murder then please clarify, you really sounded like you want nukes/dresden-style firebombing dropped on gaza |
I don't know how to respond to that, Nefud. I really don't. I am in favor of the Israeli specific pin-point targeting of known terrorists and the specific men that have called for the extermination of the state of Israel. That's pretty much the strategy. I'm for destroying the tunnels through which arms are smuggled into Gaza for the purpose of their willy-nilly attacks on southern Israel and those they hope to reach further willy-nilly into middle-Israel. I'm in favor of their continuing to drop leaflets warning civilians when an area will be bombed. I'm in favor of making a loooooooong overdue point to the numbnuts who continue to attack Israel on a daily basis as they have since every last offensive Jew left Gaza that it is not acceptable.
Dresden-style firebombing?! You are living in the wrong era. Your information pool is severely lacking. Today Ehud Barak has suggested a new approach -- a tunnel connecting the West Bank to Gaza for free use of Palestinians alone. That ought to work. But Barak stands little chance of being elected. I say to you one last time (I hope) that if Israel's goal were to exterminate their enemy -- as is the oft-repeated official goal of Hamas in reverse -- they could have achieved that goal very easily by now. Isn't that crystal clear?
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 86. Monday, February 2, 2009 12:38 PM |
| Nefud |
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look, you cited nagasaki and hiroshima in a paragraph describing how you want the israelis to win a decisive victory, you can't blame me for getting confused by that
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| 87. Monday, February 2, 2009 1:19 PM |
| nuart |
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| QUOTE: look, you cited nagasaki and hiroshima in a paragraph describing how you want the israelis to win a decisive victory, you can't blame me for getting confused by that |
No. I was describing WARFARE to you -- not suggesting that Israel drop a nuke on Gaza. I was describing that war is not a tennis match. And that the idea of "proportionality" has never been a consideration. Since war is such an anathema to you, this may come as news. The object of war is to win. When one side's objective is a peaceful co-existence and the other side's objective is your obliteration, well, then the game plans need to readjust. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 88. Monday, February 2, 2009 1:22 PM |
| bio_hazard |
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Hi Susan, I guess this is my perspective: 1) I fully support Israel defending itself, and think they actually did a pretty good job of minimizing civilian casualties in the last Gaza incursion. Better than the last dust-up in Lebanon. I think their stated goal of finding and destroying covert supply tunnels as an attempt to find a medium-term solution to rocket attacks is worthy. Today's BBC article mentions that 1/3 of casualties were civilians. I would wager that this is way better than, say the US in Iraq or Afghanistan. I agree the media should emphasize this more. However, keep in mind that the perspective of a pro-israeli person (including myself) is "given this war in self defense is necessary, we should be praised for only killing X civilians", while if someone starts with the perspective "is the war necessary?", no matter what X is, it will be too high.
2) Just because a war is justified does not mean that it could be run differently to a) more effectively reach its political or economic goal or b) with less impact on civilians. 3) Media coverage is critical in wars to provide feedback independent of the war machine as to a) and b) above. I don't buy the idea that it is unpatriotic to be critical in wartime, whether it is the US or someone else you support. I think war is stupid even if necessary, so I'll take the points of information, consider their source, and come to my own conclusions about the 'big picture' of the conflict.
4) in the specific case of the UN school, I don't buy that the difference between "a shell hit the school" and "shell blast damaged the school" is at all an important difference either in terms of reporting bias or israeli intent. I don't deny it might not representative of the whole situation either in terms of reporting or israeli action.
5) I think the Jewish-Palestinian situation is particularly complex because, while it may have features of a "win at all cost" war, there is perception (maybe it is just me) that Israel has such control over the situation on the ground that it could also be viewed as something more analogous to police action. Additionally, it is not clear to me that the palestinians really have the ability to govern themselves or control hostile actors within their own borders, and this may be at least in small part to the level of control Israel exerts. I in no way say this justifies Hamas or other attacks on Israel.
6) You have made your position clear, and I respect your providing links to non-standard news sources and your general support for the big I. That said, we are on the internets. Anyone who takes a position as unwaveringnly as you have is bound to find others willing to play devil's advocate even if they are generally in agreement (or not in agreement).
-Alan (bio)
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| 89. Monday, February 2, 2009 1:29 PM |
| coolspringsj |
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 My Owl spoke to me and sent this emoticon
"Harry, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot, black coffee. Like this." -Dale Cooper
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| 90. Monday, February 2, 2009 1:38 PM |
| nuart |
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Alan, A much appreciated verbalizing of your position! Thank you for it. Oh how I love clarity even when we may have differences. There is much to agree upon in your words. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 91. Friday, February 6, 2009 11:50 AM |
| nuart |
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Here's a good one...
February 06, 2009 Palestinian Death Sentences Symbolize a Return to Arafat By Daniel Tauber
On the eve of former U.S. Senator George Mitchell's mission to Israel as U.S. envoy in the aftermath of Israel's recent anti-terror Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, a Palestinian Authority military court in Hebron sentenced a former member of the Palestinian Authority presidential security service, Force 17, to death for the crime of collaborating with Israel in anti-terror operations.
In two other instances, in April and July of 2008, a Palestinian Authority court in Jenin sentenced three other Palestinian-Arabs to death for collaborating with Israel as well. According to Human Rights Watch, Palestinian Authority courts have sentenced at least 11 Palestinian-Arabs to death in 2008 alone.
Thus, far from fulfilling its obligations to fight terror of its own accord or by cooperating with Israel, the Palestinian Authority punishes, in the worst way possible, those who do.
The courts' verdicts recall the extremist policies of the Palestinian Authority once practiced under terror-chief Yasser Arafat. Between 1994 and 2005 (Arafat died in November of 2004), the Palestinian Authority issued 74 death sentences. And this is aside from the numerous other human rights violations under his rule.
The issuing of the verdicts by courts of the supposedly moderate Fatah-run side of the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") also parallel those currently practiced by the Hamas-run side of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza. In July, a Hamas-run Palestinian Authority court in Gaza sentenced a Palestinian-Arab to death for informing Israel of the whereabouts of Palestinian terrorists, later killed by the I.D.F. In fact, during Israel's recent operation in Gaza, Hamas executed over 19 Palestinians and brutally tortured and maimed over 60 others whom Hamas suspected of collaboration with Israel. Just as Israel ceased its operations in Gaza and withdrew its forces Hamas said that its first order of business would be to round up collaborators.
In order to be carried-out, death sentences issued by Palestinian Authority courts must be approved by the Palestinian Authority President, currently Mahmaoud Abbas. The Legal Forum for the Land of Israel, an Israeli civil rights and government reform group, wrote to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Sunday, urging them to pressure Abbas not to give his approval.
"It is your moral obligation," Legal Forum Director Nachi Eyal wrote, "to clarify to [Abbas] that approving the sentence will have a grave meaning from Israel's point of view."
The section of the penal code of the Palestinian Authority which contains the death penalty dates back to 1979, when the Authority was still the Palestinian Liberation Organization, a recognized terrorist group led by Arafat which hijacked airplanes, threw a wheelchair-bound American citizen off the side of a boat into the ocean, killed Israeli athletes in Munich and committed scores of other horrific and murderous acts.
The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, in a press release regarding the death sentence, argued that the Palestinian Authority's use of the death penalty constituted a violation of international law and called on the Palestinian Authority to enact a "penal code that conforms to the spirit of international human rights instruments."
Before newly inaugurated President Barack Obama and his envoy Senator Mitchell even consider asking Israel to make security concessions which will undoubtedly enable terrorists to attack Israeli civilians and use rockets to shut down entire Israeli cities, they must demand an end to the obvious cause of violence - the official approval of terrorism and anti-Israelism and corresponding condemnation of helping Israel fight terrorism.
More than asking Abbas to merely not approve death sentences, the U.S. must demand that Abbas pardon the men and remove sections of the Palestinian Authority penal code which criminalize fighting terror in collaboration with Israel. Anything less would leave those convicted with a court approved stigma of evil for doing what the United States has been demanding for years and would serve as a deterrent to those who would otherwise assist Israel in the future.
Over the last 8 years, U.S. aid to the Palestinians totaled almost $2.3 billion, hundreds of millions of which went directly to the Palestinian Authority. Ultimately, and more to the root of the problem, the U.S. must seriously reconsider its funding of an organization which executes people for fighting terror in "collaboration" with Israel, names stadiums after homicide bombers or riflemen who target women and children, uses textbooks to promote anti-Semitism to school children, and whose constituency fired rifles in the air in celebration of the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001.
As former Republican Presidential Candidate Senator John McCain said over and over during the presidential campaign, its time we stopped sending billions of dollars to people who don't like us very much. This includes - perhaps more than any other entity which currently receives U.S. aid - the Palestinian Authority.
Eyal made a similar point in his letter to Olmert and Barak: not only does the execution of collaborators with Israel symbolize a "return to the uncivilized norms that typified the rule of Yasser Arafat," but it "shows that whoever trusts the PA and gives it weapons and armored cars is behaving irresponsibly."
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 92. Monday, February 9, 2009 9:59 PM |
| Nefud |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQXecLyureE get dem bad ole farmers, idf pew pew
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| 93. Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:13 AM |
| Raymond |
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Israeli Election coming up . Be Be Netanyahu has a lead in polls, polls that have been closing in on even money. I would support Net. Of course with the various pol parties his Likud party would be part of a coalition government. To help reduce the trouble in Gaza, Iran must get rid of the 12th Iman Sharia zealots. I miss the old Sha of Iran. Even the Ayatolla Kohmeini looks like a better choice- get rid of that Achiminajihad and the 12ers, even al queda doesn't buy into that belief.
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| 94. Monday, February 9, 2009 11:43 PM |
| nuart |
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You'd better send that book back to me, Nefud. It's clear you have no desire to be informed.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 95. Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 AM |
| Nefud |
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i'm going to remain pretty lighthearted and make silly posts sometimes, it's just going to happen no matter what thread i'm posting in i DID get it wooo media mail. it's on my nightstand but it's taking me longer than i thought to get through moby dick because i've been so tired lately
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| 96. Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:54 AM |
| Booth |
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Nefud Olmert
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| 97. Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:03 AM |
| nuart |
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Okay, Nefud. I should know by now. Oh, if only I could lighten up and not let life interfere with the joviality of reading TP posts and watching YouTube videos of lame out-of-context dim-wits filming themselves being 'courageous' while the supporters of the beleagured. Gross. I suppose their next stop will be Madagascar or Zimbabwe where standing will a bull horn taunting a foreign army in ENGLISH yet may not lead to bullets that miss. Maybe they'll go hang at the border of North Korea and film themselves taunting. Sure.
But sure, it's hilarious. And anyway (hahahahahaha) no one really takes that stuff seriously. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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| 98. Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:13 AM |
| Nefud |
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the bullhorn chick is hilarious EE NUN CEE AY SHUN in english lol and it's pretty clear that the idf was shooting to miss, probably like 20 feet above their heads. no one is that bad of a shot if they were actually trying to do damage!
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| 99. Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:23 PM |
| Raymond |
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JERUSALEM – Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's Kadima Party was forecast to eke out a surprising victory in Israel's election Tuesday, but exit polls showed strong support for hard-line rivals that will make it difficult for her to form a coalition government. The exit polls announced on Israeli TV stations said the centrist Kadima had a narrow edge over Benjamin Netanyahu's hard-line Likud Party. The results, if confirmed, marked a stunning turn of events for Netanyahu, who had held a solid lead in opinion polls until just before the parliamentary election.
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| 100. Friday, February 27, 2009 6:18 PM |
| newraymond |
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Interesting change for Hillary now that she is not a senator from New York... Jewish Leaders Blast Clinton Over Israel CriticismZuckerman, Lawmakers, Local Jews Say Secretary Of State Not The Hillary Clinton They Used To KnowHillary Pressuring Israel To Speed Up Aid To GazaNEW YORK (CBS) ? Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton speaks to members and guests of the Asia Society Feb. 13, 2009, in New York City. Secretary Clinton's speech was made ahead of her first official trip to the East Asian countries. Mario Tama/Getty Images In a swift about face from her views as New York's senator, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is now hammering Israel over its treatment of Palestinians in Gaza.
As First Lady, Clinton raised eyebrows when she kissed Suha Arafat.
Since she was then seeking a Senate seat the resulting brouhaha caused her to "re-think" her positions.
"I'm a very strong supporter of Israel," Clinton said back in February 2000.
On Thursday, as Secretary of State she had yet another about face in the form of angry messages demanding Israel speed up aid to Gaza. Jewish leaders are furious. http://wcbstv.com/national/hillary.clinton.israel.2.945238.html
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