Oh please, do we have to do a tit for tat of which Rep or which Dem called the current president a liar? You did the tit.  Here's a tat from Harry Reid from Meet the Press.

MR. RUSSERT:  When the president talked about Yucca Mountain and moving the nation's nuclear waste there, you were very, very, very strong in your words. You said, "President Bush is a liar.  He betrayed Nevada and he betrayed the country."

Is that rhetoric appropriate?

Or this?

President Obama accused Bill Clinton of peddling "bald-faced lies" during the presidential campaign, according to a new book on the 2008 race. 

Newsweek reporter Richard Wolffe writes in "Renegade: The Making of a President" that Obama's campaign struggled to figure out how to respond to former President Clinton, who during the early primaries was a fierce defender of his wife Hillary Clinton's bid for the Democratic nomination. 

"We had to figure out how to deal with a former president who was just lying, engaging in bald-faced lies," Obama told Wolffe. He also boasted about his campaign's ultimate ability to take on the former president. 

 

And we could go on and on. 

These are meaningless distractions.  Let me know the next time someone is caned on the Senate floor as happened in the Ante-Bellum years. 

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I dont really care as it just makes republicans look more childish on the health care debate than they already are. But could you imagine if Harry Reid had yelled out "you lie" during one of president Bush's speech to congress, say about the Iraq war? This board would be lit up I'm sure. Classy huh? HaHa I finally got to add "classy" to a thread.

Looks like Wilson is using the incident to raise maoney.

From CNN: Less than a day after Rep. Joe Wilson formally apologized to President Obama over his "you lie" outburst, a campaign aide confirms to CNN the South Carolina Republican has raised "more than $200,000″ in the wake of the now-infamous moment.

News of that cash haul comes after Wilson directly asked in a Web video for campaign cash to fend off attacks from political opponents and said he's standing by his opposition to Democratic efforts at health care reform.

R_Flagg

So let's stop assuming things...

Jordan .

I usually respect and listen more carefully to civil discussion.

R_Flagg

Hope that was civil enough. :)

Kelly

How Do You Live Your Dash?

Check out the Kids' blogs:
The CaleBlog and the Zoe Blog

Agreed, R_Flagg. But you've lost me. Not sure what that has to do with my comment that anything like what Wilson did is uncalled for (during a presidential speech in the Capitol), IMO, regardless of party or issue.

Nefud posts a thread that is obviously bait. Susan replies. You reply with an assumption which I believe is incorrect - esp since I think most of us (if not all) would agree that Wilson was in the wrong.

so let's do a quick count.

Was Wilson wrong or right to do what he did?

Me: wrong.

Wilson Wrong = 1 , Wilson Right = 0

Oh, BTW - found this interesting ...

Jordan .

I vote neither. He's a dude who flipped out a little bit.  It certainly wasn't "right" but "wrong" would be if it was premeditated or something. 
 

I mostly posted this to see who I could get to flip out.  I knew Susan wouldn't be able to resist defending the Most Flawless Political Party in Human History*, and I'm kind of sad I didn't get a newraymond rant. Oh well.

*"But I swear you guys I'm really an independant and I even voted for Obama but GOD HELP YOU if you ever say anything that can be construed as negative against a member of the GOP."

And yeah, we bitch about something you guys say regarding the GOP, just like the opposition bitches when something the GOP does to your guy. It's not just one-sided.

Again, I hope I'm being civil.

Kelly

How Do You Live Your Dash?

Check out the Kids' blogs:
The CaleBlog and the Zoe Blog

Wilson was wrong and it was disrespectful to the speaker. I would not heckle Bush if I were watching him speak, especially while addressing the nation. Even worse when you are an elected official representing a state.

I guess my point was that this is indicative of the right wing with the loudest voices (not TPG board members) that seem to react with childish arguments lately during speeches, town halls, talk shows, etc. Kind of reminds me a bit of the left when the republicans were in charge of everything.

I am more likely to listen to civil, logical discussion. For example I have heard a few good criticisms from the right by Jack Kingston and Darell Issa that make sense. Those guys have class but seem to get drowned out by the childish behavior of the Wilsons, Cornyn, and Palins out there who simply want to draw attention to themselves.

I understand Nefud was putting out bait and I didn't think it was worth starting a topic myself about it but......I think that if the circumstances were reversed a topic would have been posted by someone on the right.

Maybe it's all my imagination. I do seek out opposing viewpoints and listen when they are civil and logical. It just seems like the landscape is pretty bare on rational discussion of what I consider an important issue. That's why I like posting here for the most part.

R_Flagg

I think you and Jordan are always civil!!  It's more about political philosophy rather than GOP vs non-GOP. I think most but not all of the so called independants who post here are of the right wing philosophy and that is fine with me. Sometimes though there are ridiculous rants from both sides that are purely to get people riled up.

Again that's fine with me, I usually try and stay away from those but sometimes you just get sucked in. It's human nature I guess....

As for the topic of this thread, it is political news after all so I say go at it.

R_Flagg

Hi Nefud. no rant here, however, i thought what you said about an emotional, off the cuff reaction by Wilson was , I don't know , kind of inciteful. My opinion of you is hereby raised up ! ( like you could give a shadoobie )

I'm beginning to believe you can't read, Nefud.  Seriously.

I defended?!  Did I flip out?

I did neither.  But you won't read this.  If you do sort through my words, I've no doubt you'll reprocess them in that cuisnart of a mind and what comes out will be the usual Nefud-preconceived concoction.  

 I'll try to make it simple(r). 

My point was to say there is NOT any party line restriction to being a jerk.  Or making an ill-conceived outburst.  Or to insulting the president of the US.  Simple. 

To suggest this incident was some unique indignity to the POTUS was easily shot full of holes with a couple recent (tit-for-tat) examples.  And we could have gone on and on and on.  But I think I DID say as much already, didn't I?  But you processed "defense of Republicans."  Whaddayagonnado.

So I repeat.  It was a momentary distraction from the real issue of the evening -- the highly anticipated speech before Congress by the President -- and the specific allegation which then became the non-issue because of a momentary distraction:  Would illegal aliens receive any benefits under the new (and still unwritten...) "Obamacare" bill?

FrUsTrAtInGlY yOuRs,

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

 Of course you are, as always.

 I honestly don't know how you can feel "outgunned" though. Your estimate of three seems a little on the light side.  It's usually all of those three (though usually more like 4, depending on the issue), in absolute lock-step against the 1 or 2 that try to dissent.  Not to mention the more right-wing voices on the board come from a person who ran the fest for years and years, and the guy who runs (and fronts the money for) the board.  Like it or not, those voices tend to carry more weight, and some people might not want to try to say anything against them.

It's kind of fascinating that everyone feels like this particular subforum is an echo chamber for the side they tend to disagree with.

Initially? Maybe not. As of right now....? Hahahah. 
  

Yes, the problem is clearly mine, what rational person could resist taking your holier-than-thou rants to heart? Please, make it simple. Make it with chewable pages, for ages 1-2. Because I'm clearly that dumb, because I disagree with you. Durrrrrrr.

Your point was "Well...well.....everyone does it, so it's no big deal!!"  See also:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_equivalence_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_equivalence

 I think that as a rule, it is not very instructive to use such moments as illustrative of an individual human being or as a political party.  There are far too many example of disrespect in politics, media and most human interaction these days.  (not to say that there isn't a place for conflict but I guess I crave a level of style at least)

I've said this countless times over the years.  Not sure it's absorbed.  But I detest the shouting matches, the teaming of two talking heads ("Dem strategist" v. "Rep strategist") that happens so often on cable TV.  I don't like it.  It serves no purpose.  There's no persuasion.  There's nothing gained.  I flip through those channels so quickly and often find myself squarely planted on 433 -- High Definition House and Garden TV -- where I can be sure it will be educational!

I have always felt that calling someone a "LIAR" is generally overstatement.  You may peruse every post I've ever made here and I doubt you'll find that I ever characterized any politician as such.  I don't think I've used the term to describe anyone.  (well maybe OJ...)  Everyone lies.  But few can be summed up by the moniker "liar."  It's a special characteristic and should be saved for the most worthy of culprits.

Anyway, it's getting late.  I want to get out of my party clothes and relax.  Busy day/long day filled with a panoply of real life joys/problems that outweigh any further discussion of "You Lie."   Tonight, at least.  : )

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I guess we're gettin' down to the actual nitty gritty here.

Hmmm.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

There is always exceptions to the rule in some cases, but for the most part, here's the breakdown:

Right leaning on this board: Susan, Jordan, sometimes newraymond

Left-leaning on this board: nef, mayray, R_Flagg, smeds (when she's on).

Granted it's pretty even.

Now, I'll defend Jordan on this, although he can debate just fine by himself. I moderate on this forum, I don't like to post, but what I do see with Jordan is that even though he's loyal to the right, he's never once held anything against anyone for any political, religious, or any other belief. We've run this board for SEVERAL years. It's been, geez, 10+ years?  And in any of that time, I have never seen Jordan hold anything against their beliefs. In fact, he always asks questions so that he can understand that person's beliefs a bit more to see where they are coming from. He's very respectful on that.

Not that any of this matters, but I'd like to just throw it out there. People are going to believe what they want to believe, and they don't try to meet half-way with anything. Unfortunately, it's a shame it has to be that way.

Kelly

How Do You Live Your Dash?

Check out the Kids' blogs:
The CaleBlog and the Zoe Blog

Yeah, I'm in no way implying that Jordan or anyone else TRIES to make this part of the forum intimidating, but I think some folks would find it that way. It's just a guess.

Don't forget that Angel can be a pretty strong right-leaning voice.

But anyway, I always find Jordan to be very reasonable and able to explain his positions well. He's personally responsible for dragging me just a smidge further to the right.

Ok now I feel weird about talking like his like he's not here, but I'm way too lazy to try to rephrase this post. :)

Jordan .

My sensitivity meter will often bounce into the red zone when I'm told the equivalent of ...so what you're saying is...

por ejemplo:        Your point was "Well...well.....everyone does it, so it's no big deal!!" 

...and the third person representation of what I said bears no resemblance to my thoughts (or words).

There's a frustration factor when my words are not received for what they do say but rather what some imaginary and amorphous GOP-Monster might say and believe.

I do miss some of the European and Canadian Gazetteers whose POVs were interesting and fun to compare and contrast.

Who would have thunk a Joe Wilson thread to be soooo instructive?  And you know what?  I never heard of the guy until this week and really had no dog in that fight.  (which I tried very hard to communicate)

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Today Joe Wilson is verbally spanked by members of both parties.  How can anyone give weight to the opinion of a man who represents a state that still flies the confederate flag? 

As far as the climate on this politics forum, I will say that sometimes I feel like I am being told that I'm stupid for being a liberal.  No one has called me stupid outright, but that doesn't mean that people don't get impressions.  I guess it's even but the conservatives seem to post more here in politics.  I honestly don't like to very much because I feel that I am being cut up sometimes.  Now I am not saying that all the conservatives are disrespectful of others views, but there is a very vocal contingent that kinda is.

In the larger sense of liberal vs conservative and the stereotypes of how each group views one another, May, here is the sense I've come to believe:

Liberals tend to generalize that conservatives are evil.

Conservatives tend to generalize that liberals are naive.  

Having been on both sides, that's pretty much been my long term observation in a very very general sense if I had to use one adjective for each side of the coin.  Probably each of us could come up with other adjectives and it might even be interesting to know.

Myself, I do not think that liberals are stupid as a rule.  In fact, I think liberals (in a very very general sense) are often very highly educated and intelligent people who would score well on IQ tests.  I live pretty much in that world and know it like the back of my hand.

Those who would only define themselves as a "Democrat" or a "Republican" but do not closely follow politics have plenty of ill-informed candidates among them.  You don't get to be a "Liberal" without having some more political information than your basic citizen who maybe votes in an election without giving it too much thought.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

We live in a post political pundent environment where it seems like nobody has to think for themselves anymore. Which side can claim victory for the day is all that seems to matter anymore.

R_Flagg