Yeah, baby, it's all different now in Detroit and environs. Sigh. The last time I was in Dearborn was before Josh was born. David and Martha and I went back to Michigan for Christmas. We took David to Greenfield Village and went on a "one-horse open sleigh" followed by hot chocolate. The time before that was for my senior prom which for some reason was held in Dearborn.

I wonder if Greek Town is still the same?!? Remember the giant wooden barrels filled with olives in the Greek Town restaurants? Boy, Detroit was once a city!

We just got back from dinner. I had two glasses of wine so I'm more tipsy than usual, but I have to ask the simplest of questions. How is it that so many are opposed to capital punishment? What's the basis for this uneasiness? What is the mitigates against putting the worst murderers to death and allows the mind to counterwish that murderers live out their natural lives? Maybe there is some simple answer that can help me understand it. Probably not but I'm just wondering. I don't even understand the Pope on the subject particularly when it comes to a mass murderer of monstrous proportions and not just a simple cop killer like Mumia.

Tomorrow I may be sorry I asked the question.

They do shoot horses, don't they?

Susan

PS Okay I watched the cell phone movie. Geez the "cinematographer" has no future with endorsements for steadi-cam, that's for sure. Maybe tomorrow the subtitles will be included. I would like to know what they were shouting beyond the customary Allahu Akbar and Saddam's "Palestine is Arab."

PPS.  Here's another video -- this one with some Iraqi refugees' take.  It's Al Jazeera TV from Damascus.  What a sorry state of affairs to hear Iraqis refer to Saddam Hussein as a "martyr."  It only illustrates what troubles lie ahead if such a mindset is at all prevalent in Arab nations. 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Then why bother doing it?

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Justice.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Don't make me bring out the cliches, Jamie, but sufficeth to say a world without justice is more dangerous.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

My thoughts...

Well I'm against the death penalty - I just don't see anything positive coming out of it.  Particularly in the case of psycho muslim leaders who can gain more from being put to death than they would by living.

The whole martyr thing concerns me - sure Sunnis will inflate the life and times of Saddam, but I'd hate to see pockets of other muslims around the world also start to embrace Saddam as some sort of Islamic hero and now martyr.

On the other hand, it does give some credibility to the Iraqi govt...that they were able to carry out this trial and execution without too much interference or distraction.  They've done away with the bane of existence for many Iraqis.

As to how this will affect the day-to-day violence in Iraq, it's safe to say no-one really knows.  It may have no effect, it may re-ignite a fresh wave of insurgent attacks, or it may mark an end to a violent chapter.  Personally I can't see any immediate cessation of violence - after all, the tensions aren't about Saddam.

The killing in Iraq will continue as these various Islamic nutjobs sort out their tribal conflicts.  If the US were killing these people directly then the UN would have a major fit...but as it's Iraqis killing Iraqis, the total number of muslims in the world is decreasing by thousands as the months roll by...and I read between the lines that some people think that's a-ok.

I hear they're selling commemorative Saddam t-shirts now.

They're a bit tight around the neck, but apparently they hang well...

@:-P

Then in December of 2003, he was captured. The Shia of a certain age remembered well the post-1991 Gulf War retribution against them for fighting back against Saddam Hussein. There was always a fear of what would happen when the Americans left Iraq IF Saddam were left alive. Not even counting the direct survivors of Saddam's savagery over the years, to the Shia alone, the finality of death could reasonably be viewed as "positive." Neither Saddam nor his sons would ever again rise to power with a new reign of terror.

And so we went from the guilty verdict to "Saddam to be Hung Within 30 Days" to "Execution Expected Any Time." This is rapid fire by US standards. The fact that the execution followed the guilty verdicts so quickly, without any "Countdown to Hanging" ceremony and without days of live cable TV coverage, is a good and positive thing, in my opinion.

His death doesn't mean life is cushy now which is why I believe his execution was more anticlimatic. There are many more pressing matters of survival that demand immediate attention.

But maybe "positivity" shouldn't be the main criteria to consider when determining the death penalty. We could also ask, what is "positive" about a horrendous murderer responsible for snuffing out so many lives, who finds himself ALIVE in a jail cell; waking each morning, taking a deep breath, breathing all the live-long day; eating three meals a day prepared for him then not having to clean up the kitchen afterward; corresponding with loved ones and fans; reading books; writing memoirs; figuring out strategies of how to escape? These are a few of the negatives that would have accompanied a life sentence. Somehow that doesn't feel much like a "positive" to me even if such an inmate were to discover the cure for cancer during his incarceration.

Justice, in the case of such wanton crimes where the defendant has been determined to be guilty of murder as charged, seems to cry out for the termination of that criminal's life. For the life of me, I do not understand the objections.

Thinking about your concern over the "martyr" issue, Cybacat, earlier today there were some 300-500 protesters on the streets in Iraq carting around gaudy portraits of Saddam Hussein and raising daggers to the air. Not exactly a groundswell. When you think about it, there's probably not a surefire penal code strategy that would completely deter the future blossoming of martyrdom cults. For goodness sake, even Charlie Manson, with his death sentence that was cruelly subverted to a life sentence, has a growing share of avid followers. For a culture who have exalted the "martyrdom" death over life philosophy, it's going to take more than eliminating the death penalty to rid the world of that abberation.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

heheh you know I love questions. I also have mixed feelings. I agree with most of what Ray said, but still a bit iffy on which "side" of the fence I'm on.

To give you a simple answer, I think simply because some of us see putting the worst murderers to death as making us no better than they are.  YES we could and can and still will do that, and many here believe in the "eye for an eye" or in Hussein's case "eye for a million.." didn't phrase that right but you see what I am getting at.

But I think the general "uneasiness" among the anti-capital punishment populus, which I have felt too, it's hard to explain, but I think subconsciously you feel like "wait a minute, who made us (inserts religious deity here so as not to offend)whoever". "What gives us the right to extinguish another life? 

Even if that life DID extinguish so many? YES he should be made to suffer, I am not disputing that, and yes he was, yes the world is better off now,  but apart from that what did his hanging actually achieve except increasing the violence and bloodshed in Iraq? (as X-Ray predicted.) 

 
If we do continue to extinguish lives as and when we see fit, we basically feel we are stooping down to the level of the murderers and are therefore murderers ourselves. What is the point of having a...

actually I'll stop now or this IS going to turn into a capital punishment debate in general and I only intended to answer your question. lol. 

"watch out for my cousin.."

Thanks, Maddy. I like your ambivalence on the subject. Maybe some day I can subvert your thinking.

I think there is as much a distinction between a state sponsored punishment of execution, which, granted, involves taking a human life and a murderer's taking of a human life as there is between two types of sexual intercourse -- an act of love versus the crime of rape. Same goes for the difference between locking up a convicted criminal for a prison sentence or illegally kidnapping and confining someone in shackles in your wine cellar. Both involve holding someone against their will.

Invoking a deity is fine if we want to deal with death penalty biblically even, but there are numerous examples from the Bible where God gives his approval and it wouldn't be just the "eye for an eye" quote. For the biblically inclined, it is not difficult to find Biblical tracts that justify the ultimate punishment applied for the most abhorrent of human crimes: the taking of a human life through murder. "Thou shalt not MURDER" does not have the same meaning as "Thou shalt not KILL."

We, as humans living within a social order, are called upon to make judgments all the time. What permission does a society give when allowing a military or a police force to take a life? How about a citizen's rights to take a life in the case of self-defense? There are parameters determined by each society. For example, in the US, it is not the aggrieved parties -- survivors -- who personally enact the punishment. In fact the victims' family members may ask for leniency, but that is only one mitigating factor. It is still the state who is the greater victim when the social order is undermined by a murderer's crimes. Hence The State vs. OJ Simpson, Charles Manson, etc. Though it may be seen as only offering a thin veneer of civilization, in my eyes, it's an important layer.

Anyway, I always find this discussion interesting. Thanks for giving me your thoughts, Maddy.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

See how quickly Saddam has been forgotten?

I've been thinking some more about the issue of Saddam being made to suffer. And was that a better option than execution? If any of you could design his fate as a lifer, how would you have made him suffer? Torture? Mild torture? Thin blankets? No visitors?

Were he to remain for life in prison, how would you insure that Saddam wouldn't sending out death decrees like a Mafia kingpin in an American prison or a Latin American druglord from his cell? Maybe by having his enemies as his jailkeepers? Then how would you prevent him from being tortured? UN blue helmets? I don't know. Doesn't sound plausible.

But I do have one other question for those who believe that even a tyrant of the magnitude of Saddam Hussein, who cruelly took so many lives, but still deserved to keep his own:  What, if anything, would you hope might ultimately happen to him in the grand scheme of things -- ie -- the afterlife.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Maddy (et al),

I find it highly distasteful that images from Saddam's execution were shown on UK television. Its bad enough that our gutless excuse for a Prime Minister didn't stand up to the US and Iraq over the death penalty, but to actually allow it on  prime time television in a country that opposes capital punishment is a new low. 

I suppose to most Americans its quite normal to execute evil criminals, its part of their justice system. I just don't understand how anyone can take any pleasure at all in witnessing the execution of another human being. I'm also sickened that the UK didn't do more to oppose this action. As we clearly have no influence at all on policy in Iraq, it make me wonder why we still have our troops there.
 
 

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

He'll probably be reborn as a cockroach.

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Thank you, Erwin. Precisely my point. Not always, but often the anti-death penalty stance so commonplace in Europe goes hand-in-hand with the no-God stance. This must mean that holding a prisoner of the worst proportions behind bars is ample punishment as far as you're concernced. So, it is increasingly baffling how those of you who hold these views would design your penal systems so they are humane enough for your high standards. What other criminal might deserve life in prison alongside a Saddam Hussein? Bank Robbers? Arsonists? White collar criminals???

Ray, I don't believe the proper view of Saddam's execution is of a "joyful" experience. I found the street scenes in Dearborn, Michigan unseemly (a word I seldom get to use). Were I a family member of a child tortured before my eyes and then killed by Saddam and his henchmen, I still don't think it would be a time to dance a jig. But there is a fitting and apt finality that has often been described by loved ones of murder victims who witness the death of the murderer as fulfilling.

I think it would have been better if the occasion had been solemn and done with the proper ritual. There is a protocol in the best of circumstances.

Ray, your additional words offer little to enlighten me as to why you find the death penalty so abhorrent. You don't have to explain it any further if you don't feel like it and that's fine. But wishing Saddam to come back as a cockroach seems insufficient, don't you think?

But you are right that the quiet among most anti-death penalty Europeans (not just Tony Blair) was curious. Any idea why that might have been the case? I have some thoughts but you may be closer to knowing the reasoning.

Susan

PS  I suppose to most Americans its quite normal to execute evil criminals, its part of their justice system

In the United States it is the rare "evil criminal" who gets executed, Ray.  In California it is exceedingly rare to receive a death penalty and to be eligible you generally need to have killed more than two people, done so as a premeditated crime, have done so while lying in wait, or killed a child while having sexually assaulted him/her.  The jury will not be likely to give the death penalty unless an extremely high threshold of guilt is presented.  (Witness the OJ case and the acquital of double murder, lying in wait, 1 in a billion DNA match)  I'll have to look up the stats but I can tell you that in California, where we have the death penalty (about half the states do), we've executed a handful of convicted first degree murderers over the past 31 years since the death penalty has been returned.  Texas and Florida have the most frequent but I believe it's Delaware with the highest percentage of death row inmates who ultimately get executed.  In California the average length of time spent on death row is close to 20 years.   

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Blair didn't have the balls to stand up for his convictions. Besides he is a wounded political animal right now. An embarrassing snub by the US/Iraq over the death penalty would just draw more attention to his lack of influence.

The cockroach comment was just me being flippant. I don't really have any wish for Saddam in the afterlife regarding punishment. I guess the families of those that were victims of his crimes would be better placed to decide his punishment.

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

I'll take that as an "I don't really want to talk about my antipathy re/death penalties."

Okay.  Maybe later.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I believe that everyone has a fundamental right to life. The only circumstances where I might condone killing another human being would be in self-defence or possibly during a war. I also support the right to euthanasia.

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Susan, are you seeking my views on capital punishment, or the capital punishment of Saddam?

If its specifically Saddam, then I have a several more reasons I could add...

x-ray
if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...

Both, Ray.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

You make a persuasive point Susan...I am nearly with you on this ;-) However, do you not think the execution of one innocent person (a statistical probability) outweighs any benefits to society? As a christian myself, I don't think I would like that on my conscience if I was a law-maker.

 As for Saddam, it is a cultural norm in that part of the world, especially for  'military'  (said very loosely) persons to face the death penalty. We have to respect the Iraqi way I suppose.  

James, you hit the nail on the head of the darkest possibility from the pro-death penalty perspective. I concede that is true. And I think it is the single strongest argument to be made against the death penalty. There is a possibility that the wrong person is killed -- someone who did not commit the murder for which they were tried, convicted, and sentenced.

But...Don't forget here in the US, any death penalty is given years of appeals. If there were ONE case within the past 50-75 years of an innocent having been executed, that individual would have become the poster boy/girl for the anti-death penalty movement. 

For a while the anti-death penalty forces thought they had that fellow. Though I can't remember his name off hand, back in the early 80s he was on the cover of Time magazine with the headline: This Man is About to be Executed -- AND HE MAY BE INNOCENT. Something like that. I think he was from West Virginia -- maybe Pennsylvania or Ohio -- think he was a coal miner. He was convicted of the rape-murder of his teenager sister-in-law. With the blood testing evidence of that era, they found a match and ultimately he received the death penalty. But "he never deviated from his claims of innocence," as defense attorneys always say of their convicted clients.  He went to the death chamber proclaiming that innocence. (kinda like Sean Penn almost did in "Dead Man Walking")

The most high-profile of such criminals receive beaucoup press coverage. Law students jump on the bandwagon with the wide-eyed outrage that an innocent man may be wrongfully killed. Who wouldn't if they sincerely believed in the cinematic version of the story? Bottom line: In the intervening years, the possibility that he was innocent kept his "martyrdom" alive as a symbol. About a year ago, in a most unusual turn of events, the governor of the state allowed a retroactive post-humous NEW DNA test. The anti-death penalty crowds were twitterpated at the possibility that their man would finally be proven INNOCENT with the latest technology. It was a huge story. But it came out a positive match with the executed man.  Guilty as charged. Very little press coverage followed. Dog bites man.

Two years ago a brutal murderer named Kevin Cooper was hours away from his lethal injection here in California. He murdered a father, a mother, a young daughter and a young boy who was spending the night with the Ryan family. Cooper slit the throat of a fifth victim, the Ryan son, but miraculously, this child survived. Cooper was a prison escapee. There was ample evidence of his guilt-- prison issue shoe prints in the victims' blood matching Cooper's size, cigarettes, blood stains of the victims in the family car which he stole as a getaway car, their blood stains on his t-shirt, etc. He was convicted and sentenced to death back in the early 1980s. February 2004 was the scheduled execution date. His last attorney was none other than Lani Davis, former cousel to Bill Clinton. On the day of the scheduled execution, Davis was able to halt the execution to permit one last set of DNA testings -- blood and blond hairs clutched in the hand of the dead little girl. Naturally, a few months later all the evidence came back implicating Cooper, just as the prosecution had charged. The blond hairs belonged to the child. As he hacked at her face and head with an ax, her own blonde hairs were sliced. She died in a bloody heap in her bedroom, clutching remnants of her own hair. The original defense team had already stipulated to the hair evidence and didn't bother to press for testing, so obvious was it. But Lani Davis and other later defense teams tried to obfuscate the evidence and suggest that maybe there was a blond killer who got away! Alright, fine. He was proven guilty. Again. You should check out the websites supporting this multiple murderer. They try to make it a case of racism since Cooper is black while the victims were white. It's much harder to find the actual story with trial transcripts, but they are available too. Where is Kevin Cooper now? Back on the death row in line for justice delayed 25 years later. I'm not sure when he'll be executed but it is long overdue.

So my main two points are first -- yes, I agree, if an innocent person is put to death for a crime he/she did not commit, that is a grave tragedy. I would be haunted the rest of my life were I on a jury or a witness against such an individual. Most certainly.

But secondly, you, Jamie, in turn, must also acknowledge that murderers who are allowed to keep their lives, and then either kill while in prison, or escape and kill again, equals additional blood on the hands of the anti-death penalty crowd. There are far more documented cases of such killings than there are wrongful executions.

The criminall justice system is imperfect. It's handled by humans. But what's the option?  Relinguish prisons because we may be holding innocent people against their will?  Relinguish the ultimate punishment because we could make a mistake there as well?  We can make mistakes, but that's why, as annoying as these endless appeals get to be, we can minimize such errors to being all but impossible.  There is little likelihood, in this day and age, of an innocent man/woman being put to death by execution in the USA. When there is a small sliver of doubt, prosecutors are not inclined to ask for the death penalty. Juries have become accustomed to expecting far more evidence than ever, with what is being termed the "CSI factor," and are unlikely to ask for death without extraordinary proof of guilt. All of which leaves death row pretty much occupied by guilty first degree murderers.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin