Up to 32 dead now with 20+ injured in nearby hospitals. Gunman dead either with his own gun or cops. A new record-setting day of US carnage.

Developing, as they say.

http://www.drudgereport.com/ 

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I imagine in the US, like Australia, the debate quickly turns to Gun Control.

UNLIKE the US, the majority of views here are for more gun control, and cite cases like this as good reason for it.

I remember being amazed at the power the NRA exerted in the US - just amazing.  As far as political pressure groups go, while I disagree with their cause, I respect how effectively they do their job.

Yes, there is a typical set of reactions from each faction. From grief counselors, to gun control and the psychological breakdown of the type sprinkled with the student witness interviews.  One of the more appalling I watched this morning was with the student body president who smiled and urged a glib "let the healing begin" attitude.  Uh, can we maybe wait until the dead are identified???

23-year-old South Korean national with a student visa. Oh get this.  He was a loner.  He legally bought two guns in a Virginia gun store. Can't prevent someone with a legal green card from purchasing a gun. That wouldn't be fair. It might be considered racialist, doncha think?  

There are countless "gun controls" in the USA -- hundreds of them -- varying state by state. There are hundreds of laws that raise the bar on criminal charges when a gun is used. But go ahead. Add some more if you like. How you prevent a motivated individual from running amok such as this man, I don't know. Short of the impossibility of removing every legal and illegal sidearm, of which there are an estimated 300,000,000 -- one for every man, woman and child in the USA -- how do you prevent this sort of carnage with "GUN CONTROL"???

Another milestone in US history and the perp wasn't even an American.  Worst mass murder. It was a bad day. It's a damned shame the sequence of events couldn't be replayed from the end of the carnage -- beginning the day with a suicide instead of a homocide.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Who the hell cares? 

The Phelps Family is as significant as Malik Zulu Shabazz.  Or a gadfly.

Talk about the meaningless and the diversionary.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

What meaningless pap. "I support gun control." What is that supposed to mean, Chris??? Which control do you support? Which one would you have called upon to have prevented this heinous crime? Maybe the one in Washington DC where handguns are illegal and consequently has neither handguns nor handgun crime? Instead of a smug hmph about your own status as a non-gun owner and your characterization of the "gun crazy nation" (yourself and others of similar mindset excepted, natch), how about the details of the plan that would have prevented Young Cho from making his purchase. If he had no history of mental illness and no criminal record, what additional demands would you like in place? Or is your support of gun control to stop all future legal sales of guns? Seriously? WHAT IS IT???

As far as I can see the only possible preventative measure for a mass murder like this would be to have been to be on the hunt for the shooter after the initial two shootings in the dormitory. No arrests and yet I'm pretty sure that someone ID'ed the perp at that crime scene. Maybe some armed cops scattered about the campus in the two hours between those first two murders and the next 30. But even then, it may not have been effective on a 2600 acre campus and 25 minutes worth of carnage that seems to have been well planned in advance. Where are the snipers when you need them especially in "gun crazy" Virginia!

I don't mean to be needlessly blunt or hostile today but it is just all so useless. The murders of bright young students and their professors, yes. But the plethora of meaningless blather ala Michael Moore in the aftermath of this senseless national trauma makes my head hurt. I should be more tolerant. Maybe tomorrow.

By the way, Virginia Tech BY LAW is a "gun-free zone." For what it's worth.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

And why was "Ismael" inked on his forearm?

Bingo. 

And so... what's the plan for federal gun control then?  There are already local, state, and federal laws by the gazillion.  What's the new most effective missing link that qualifies as gun control that people who don't like "murder by firearm" would advocate? 

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Keep your eye on the doughnut, not on the hole -- DL

I must admit to letting out a smirk...or two...when the pro-gun folks tried to flip the debate and take the high moral ground today by pleading for people not to discuss gun control, but to instead let the people grieve for the dead.

That was just precious.  That's like coming out the day after 9/11 and arguing that we shouldn't discuss terrorism, but instead focus on grieving for the dead.  No - you do both.  And the most important, most crucial time to discuss gun control is when yet another nutjob in the US has gunned down a classroom of students.

Leave it a day or 2, and the media ADD will see the issue drift away, and the problem will remain yet again unaddressed.

Until the next massacre...and the cycle will continue.  Most Aussies just shake our heads in utter disbelief at how a normally intelligent society like the US can be so blind, so stubborn, so obstinate, so completely incapable of dealing with the problem of guns in their own society.  But then most Aussies have never lived in the US and seen the indoctrination that happens (particularly in the south) from the age of about 5 that it's almost a requirement to like guns.

I view with suspicion people who have extreme pro-gun, or anti-gun views on the issue.  I see a need for some people to have guns - usually in a farm or law enforcement situation.  That said, I’ve heard some absolutely stupid arguments over the past 24 hours.

Some argued Switzerland has more guns per capita, but a low crime rate.  So what?  That’s Switzerland!  The US has a very different culture, and one that’s far more similar to Australia’s.  We lag behind the US culture by a few years in more aspects, but are ahead in one - we don’t have guns everywhere.

Someone said that Washington has strict gun laws, but high gun crime rate.  Well...yeah - but DC had that problem before the gun laws - it’s a crime-ridden place.  Removing the guns will take some time to take effect, and is almost pointless when someone can drive across the state border and pick up as many as they want!

Now we have to weigh the benefits against the costs because as has been pointed out - a gun doesn’t kill people by itself - it’s just a tool.  Many people are killed on the roads, but cars aren’t banned.  Why?  Because the value of cars to society far outweigh the risks.  Just as the benefits of knives in cooking etc far outweigh the number of accidents or assaults using knives each year.

But guns?  What lawful purpose do everyday folks have for a gun that outweighs the risk of gun deaths in our community?  I used to hunt myself, and that’s great sport - but is my sport worth the risk of people losing lives by allowing these weapons of death to proliferate?  No.

Then some argue about the difference between legal guns and illegal guns...oh please!!  A legal gun is only legal so long as it hasn’t been taken/stolen by someone else.  If every second house in Australia has a legal gun, then the number of illegal guns will boom as the legal ones are stolen!!

It’s a simple equation - more guns in our society means more gun deaths.  We at least have America to learn from.

The US has 30,000 gun deaths every year.  30,000.  Just think about how many people that is - it’s massive.  Time for the pro-gun folks to wipe away their crocodile tears and read that figure again...30,000 dead.  For what?

SCENARIO 1:  What actually happened...some gun restrictions, some guns available.
- a disgruntled student goes and legally buys a gun.  He has a bad day, and because a gun is readily at hand is able to shoot 30+ students dead with his gun.

SCENARIO 2:  Strict gun control
- a disgruntled student goes to buy a gun...but it’s difficult due to gun control.  He can search around and try and find some criminal connection to get a gun from, but by the time he’s done that, his immediate temper will have passed.  He can resort to fists, or a knife etc...and maybe kill 2-3 students before being overpowered.

SCENARIO 3:  Everyone has guns
- a disgruntled student has a gun...most students and teachers have guns.  Student has a bad day, so decides to go shoot people.  After he’s shot the first couple, students respond by drawing their weapons.  In the confusion of a gun shooting situation, they’re not sure who started it, so commence shooting other people who have guns and look suspicious.  The shooting continues as shots are fired in all directions in the panic.  When the police arrive they shoot everyone wielding a gun dead.  Death toll...300.

Police arrive at the crime scene having been called by witnesses hearing the shouting and shooting. Someone tells cops it's that weirdo from down the hall who fled the scene. Emergency techs take the dying students away in stretchers. Police call for back-up knowing there is an armed suspect on the loose. The campus is cordoned off. Police check the dormitory from floor to floor. (wasn't done) All other campus buildings are locked down (wasn't done) with staff alerted to a suspect on the loose (wasn't done) Description goes with the alert (wasn't done) Let's say police had a clue WHO the shooter was. Not sure if any witnesses gave that information or not. Check that student's room pronto. Police disseminate through the campus in search. (not sure if that was done) Two hours go by. (that did happen) Reports come in that somehow the shooter has managed to get into Norris Hall and he's shooting at students/faculty. Police burst through the doors and take him out before 25 minutes have expired along with the lives of 30 more innocents. Maybe some students/faculty are shot. Maybe a cop is shot. Suspect is killed by cops and not by shooting off his own despicable face. The number of dead does not equal Columbine, but unfortunately, some are murdered; some are wounded.

 

Here's another scenario I would have really preferred too.  Call it the Flight 93 scenario where a group of strong young men rush the gunman and take his gun away.  Didn't hear any reports of this but lots of reports of jumping out of windows.  Whatever happens in the most intense life-threatening moments is never something one plans.  Your most basic instincts kick in.  I don't know why but it seems as if no one's gut instinct in Norris Hall was the Flight 93 scenario.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Hello, all.
To begin, I will introduce myself. I am Angel's Boyfriend. Amongst other things, I am a professional gunsmith, Armed security contractor, and fugitive recovery agent. Needless to say, my life is compounded of fire arms, for better and worse.

You may call me FireMoth.

The first fallacy I would like to dispel is that of gun control. There are a lot of different arguments, all of which I have heard a thousand times from both sides, but one stands alone, untouched by any counter: Criminals, By Definition, Break The Law.
Pretty simple. Drugs are against the law. Even ones as potentially beneficial, and relatively benign as cannabis. And I'm sure that has stopped everyone on this board from ever obtaining or using marijuana. Hopefully that serves to illustrate the point.

Ironically, it was a failure of this concept that lead to gun control to begin with. Anyone recall learning about "prohibition"?

For those of you who skipped that class in high school to smoke dope, I'll give a quick overview.

"Prohibition" was a law that told a nation full of people to stop doing something that they all liked doing a lot. Needless to say, they didn't stop doing it, but it did make it a much more dangerous pursuit. See, apparently there were some folks getting smacked around by drunks, who didn't like it, so they made the means to get drunk illegal. What they got in exchange was sober people with machine guns tear ass-ing around, letting fly all willy-nilly, trying to protect their contraband wares.
Not surprisingly people decided that it was easier to learn how to duck a punch, and maybe roll drunks up in throw rugs and beat the holy crap out of them with broom handles, then to constantly repair bullet holes in there furniture, or find new grocers on account of the last one blowing up. Prohibition was repealed in 1933.

What has this got to do with guns?

Well, there was a whole new arm of the law constructed to stop moon shiners and rum runners... and all of the sudden, they looked like they were about to be out of a job. But, by a strange coincidence, they were saved from the unemployment lines miraculously when the US congress passed the National Fire Arms act of 1934 (revised in 1935), thus establishing a need for what would become the BATFE to enforce it. (this, to clarify, was the actual law prohibiting unrestricted ownership of fully automatic fire arms for civilians. All other assault weapons bans have been prohibiting things like adjustable stocks, and the fearsome 'bayonette lug')

Coincidence? You decide.

So, Chicken or the egg?

Has a single gun law ever reduced violence?

Actually, yes.

In recent history, a rash of laws known as "Will Issue CCW" laws has made it possible for most American citizens, passing appropriate criminal back ground checks, and providing proof of competence and safety with fire arms, to obtain permit to carry a concealed weapon for personal defense and the defense of others. There has been corresponding reductions in violent crimes in areas and states that have these laws.

Here is where it gets confusing. Virginia is a "Will Issue" state, as is Colorado, and many other states that have had mass shootings. But the catch is, it is still ILLEGAL to carry a weapon on the campus of Virginia Tech, as it is on the grounds of k-12 schools in almost every state of the union.

Notably, these shocking shootings tend to happen in more affluent schools, or at least those considered quiet and suburban. I wonder if there is a deterrent in the fact that rough kids in rough schools tend to be armed weather its illegal or not? Just something to consider.

There is a lot of discussion about criminal motivation. What makes some one do this? Scholars and fools have beat their heads against the wall for centuries trying to answer that question, with little practical knowledge gained.

In the end, we must accept that it happens. The question is, what can we do when it has started happening to curtail it?
For some reason, the ability to defend ones self, and others around them seems as sound now as it did to our primitive ancestors.
I'm not saying "why" shouldn't be explored. But it think we would all prefer to ask "why" over a hand full of bodies, or better yet, none at all, then in the aftermath of carnage. And that means that the one and only option is to stop the threat. Laws have never sufficed to do that, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Maybe this will be illuminating for some of you. Undoubtedly, many will think me quite mad.

I don't particularly care what you think, as long as you DO think.



-FireMoth

Great post, FireMoth!  Hope we can expect more from your perspective in the future too.

Your point about kids from rough 'hoods not running amok as mass murderers made me recall the Los Angeles riots.  There were helicopter cameras filming the rioters on the streets of LA those days.  I remember thinking it was amazing that very few of these guys were shooting at their victims.  There were some shootings but a greater percentage of up close and personal attacks.  They were smashing windows and bashing heads with objects.  I never heard anyone address that oddity since I'm sure these same guys had guns but mostly opted not to bring them out during those 3 days.

Anyway, your post has lots of fodder for thought.  Maybe you'll want to register and join in more often.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Hello Firemoth, Good to hear from you here. Question please Sir, hope I'm not out of line : I should have no problem taking my bolt assembly by itself to a gun shop to get the firing pin fixed, no ? Or do I have to bring in the whole 22 rifle- it uses a clip ? Thanks.

Do you think my old side by side Hudson Arms 12 guage can handle modern strong 12 guage shells? Would a weaker charge in the shells purchased be a good idea for this oldie?  Welcome aboard and thanks. These firearms are legal for me.

Rich ( Amanda- I hope this is kosher to ask on the board- of course if not delete my dear. Thanks Amanda -hope you had a great birthday ) 

Who knows?  Maybe FireMoth will spawn a new Gazette forum -- Firearms and Weaponry.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Heh. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your post. :)

And yes, I had a good birthday! :D

I will now back quietly out of this thread, as the issue of gun control can give rise to heated debate and I just am not well-versed on the topic. :)

~ Amanda

"Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave..."

You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today. But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.

Cho Seung-hui sent 28 video clips to NBC

Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.

You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.

I didn't have to do this. I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run. It's not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you (expletive). I did it for them.

When the time came I did it. I had to.

Susan 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Like they've said, it's hard to tell from his hateful ramblings what exactly his beef is...and with who...for what?

Fruitcake.

Gun control is just a secondary argument to this whole thing. In fact, debating gun control dismisses the true problem here. It's not gun control, and having more laws isn't going to stop people who are interested in killing people from getting weapons. We see how good our "War on Drugs" has been haven't we, or how good the US' prohibition went in the 20s. There's also this nasty little thing called the Bill of Rights.

In any case, my point is that arguing about gun control in this case is just a secondary argument. There's a bigger issue here than gun control.

Here we have a 23 year old on Prozac and who is depressed - and some studies have shown a link between Prozac and violence.

Here we have a young adult who had a red flag go up a year ago in the college, but a psychologist said he was no harm to anyone else and he was allowed to roam free again.

Here we have a guy who has "ISMAIL AX" written on his forearm which has a religoius significance.

It's time to stop blaming the tools that are used to kill, and start blaming the people who use those tools for evil deeds. It's time to blame society for being so politically correct that we are willing to ignore our self-preservation in the name of being PC so we don't hurt or insult someone.

Jordan .

Quote from Dennis Miller that I think sums it up nicely

Let me say this. I'm intrigued by this character Liviu Librescu, the 76-year-old aerodynamics teacher at the college. Now listen, I think in our society we have somehow in current day America been denuded out of the gene that makes us want to survive at all costs.

I think Librescu, a 76-year-old Holocaust survivor who, if you do the math, was probably 12 when he first saw the face of evil, I'm sure looked up at that narrow window and that door and saw the same sick glint, that dead shark thing in that eye that he had seen as a young man. And he went towards it to stop it.

I think right now kids in this culture, between video games which kind of dumb them down vis-a-vis violence, and the non-judgmental aspect of this society, don't know evil if it springs up in a door at their college.

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

I think that's rubbish in the main, and not to be too handwringingly 'sensitive', I think it is a bit disrespectful of the people who were going about their business when they were suddenly shot and killed.