http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7828884.stm

Any chance of an end to this madness? 

Things don't get better there, they just get different shades of bad.

I have a great plan for mideast peace, but nobody likes it.

How cryptic.  Could it have something to do with transplanting all those Jews to oh, say, Sengala, and leaving the entire Middle East safe for the loving 'indigenous' peoples?

Or is it something else?

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Maybe not ahead of schedule for the end of the madness of the Congo.  Or Kashmir.  Or Sudan. 

But, you know, there are other variables at play in those places that do not concern the tiny sliver of earth bereft of oil that's known as Israel and populated by a mere 6 million (interesting number...) Jews.  And many Arabs as well.  In a geographic region that otherwise covers 20% of the earth's surface.  But according to Hamas, that is intolerable.  As were the greenhouses left behind by the Israelis.  The greenhouses that once produced something in that even smaller sliver of land.  Why were they destroyed?  Because Jewish Israelis built them. Intolerable. 

Spread Hummus.

Destroy Hamas.

But to answer the fundamental question you pose -- probably not ever.  Ups.  Downs.  Lulls.  Stop gaps.  Attacks.  Incursions.  Rockets.  Bombs.  A culture of death versus L'chaim.  And so it goes.  

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Check out the Jewish Hypersensivity up there!

For the record I don't agree with the main actors on either side of this current conflict but given that middle-east politics adversely affects middle-eastern life expectancy, diplomacy must be the only show in town when it comes to conflict resolution.

Sigh, how we always love to assume the worst of someone when they're not on the same side of a political issue.  Especially this one.

Please note the NOBODY part of my sentence, Susan.

The Arab world would largely love what you've suggested as maybe-Jamie's-idea, they would dance in the streets for weeks, so I suppose I could twist your comment to mean that you don't consider them to be people.  I won't and wouldn't, because I give you the benefit of the doubt that it's not what you meant to imply, but would you agree that it would be equally fair to your assumption about me, someone you've had occasional political debates with for a few years now?

No, my plan is to transplant "all those Jews" to one place, and transplant all those "Palestinians" (but there's no such thing, right?  They're all really scheming Jordanians or something?) someplace else entirely, and use advanced explodey technology to sink the entire region into the ocean.

That's my solution to stop them from endlessly trying to annihilate each other, and it's probably about the only thing that would have half a chance of working, from all the ideas I've heard so far.  It doesn't produce a two-state solution, it doesn't settle the settlements, or whose jurisdiction Jerusalem is in, or where the wall is allowed to go, or whether Hamas is a legitimate political entity, or any of that stuff.  Oh, well.

Cheap Swiftian ideas like this don't work in the real world, of course, and there's little danger of mine being taken seriously.  But thanks for being the first to ask, at least.

the jews in the region are an invading force, they just happen to have been around for 60 years, so people like to play pretend that they actually have some legitimacy. the only reason the west supports isreal is holocaust guilt, and the obsession with spreading "democracy" at any price. oh, and don't forget the shitball fundies who think that isreal has to exist so that the end times can properly occur, that my favorite. "support the jews so they can all die horribly when my homeboy jesus comes back! BOOYAH!"

isreal is the ultimate college campus-- it feels ideal, it looks legit, everyone grows beards and goes on demonstrations about how oppressed they are, but it CANT FUCKING EXIST without loads of cash and materials from the outside world.

i'm by no means saying hamas is an organization of saints, but if you had your back to the wall like they do (trapped by the ocean on one side, a closed egyptian border on the other, and a hostile invader on the other two), you'd go out of your mind, too. these people have no options, none.

lastly, hamas is using crappy umpteen-year-old weapons to attack the people opressing them and isreal is responding with state-of-the-art weaponry that is capable of killing people in much better numbers. also, feel free to google the uses of white phosphorus by isreal.

all this people people have it in their heads that god promised them a really bad plot of real estate. wooooo humanity.

I'm in the midst of hospital stuff here so I won't have the time to fully respond.  Last night after seeing my mom in ICU I read those posts.  And yes.  I do have Jewish hypersensitivity and one can only imagine how exaggerated it might be if I were really Jewish instead of just a -phile. 

I only wanted clarification of your plan, Jamie.  

Nefud, you are patently wrong about the 60 year invader characterization.  Could give you many factual sources but if that is your ill-informed belief, there's probably nothing I could recommend to disabuse you of such an easily repudiated meme by simply examining multitudes of historical documents disputed by no credible source.  Jerusalem alone has had a Jewish majority throughout its multi-millenial history and even after the diaspora.  I mean geez.   

I'm edgy today.  I'm sorry for the curtness.  I'll probably regret it later even more.  

Last thing that stuck in my brain from a quick view of the responses was that "those people have been trying to annhiliate each other for ... however long."  This is completely false.  Israel would have to be a pitiful military force if after 60 years, the number of Arabs still remaining as close neighbors (and citizens of Israel btw who wish to remain Israelis even if/when there is a separate Palestinian state) were still as high as it is and the number of dead is so low.  If annhiliation were the goal (and the Israelis have never stated such though it  remains commonplace in reverse among Hamas and many other "official" Arab sources not to mention private sources), this could have been accomplished. Obviously annhiliation is not the Israeli goal.  Not officially from the inception of Israel's existence.  Nor privately for the great large majority of Jewish Israelis though you could likely dredge up some radical fringe extremists with that view.

Some stories are more nuanced.  The Israeli-Arab conflict is far less so than many would have you believe.  

Nefud, Jamie, Let's - if you have any interest in hearing another side albeit from a Jew but with plenty of Arab sources included, I will mail you each a CD that will fill in the blanks that you don't hear at college card tables or from the local European-Canadian protesters.  It's concise.  You can cross reference it with your favorite sources.  And then see if you don't come away with a little more sympathy for the Israelis.

I'm trying to be charitable here.  I do not like delving into this issue.  I dislike doing so more than any other.  But especially today.  I'm sorry for any barbs you may take from me.  Know that I deliver this with affection even though it may feel sharper than I am experiencing it in my own head.  I have so much animosity for the screaming  distortions, the out of context imagery, and the outright lies whenever there is a desire to squelch one country of hundreds off the planet that I have difficulty communicating well.  Especially now.  Oh, and Pakistan was also deemed a separate country by the UN as Israel in '48.  Maybe it was a bad year for new states.

PM addresses if you'd like.  The underdog is not always the good guy.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

i sometimes get a little more fiesty because it seems like the majority of the media isn't taking the time to analyze the conflict at all, and is simply siding with isreal with no real context for the viewer.

the madagascar plan would've been best, dammit

I know.  I'm awful. But I'd be better with a pint of Irish ale in a pub discussing it face to face.  

I do recall the day that a newly freed Nelson Mandela came to Los Angeles.  I, a volunteer for Amnesty International, had plum tickets in their reserved seats at the LA Coloseum.  It was a colorful and exciting day.  Hey, even Winnie M. was there with her husband.  All the local rappers.  Lots of jubilation.  Outside the stadium I noticed something that surprised the naive cells of my otherwise streetwise brain -- IRA sign carriers alongside PLO sign carriers at an ANC event.  Hmmm, she pondered.   

As I mentioned before all "underdogs" are not equally deserving of love and affection.  But doesn't it seem to go that way with strange bedfellows?

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Or so the superior race reckoned.  The early Zionists considered alternatives too.  Just not too seriously. 

I wish I knew whose majority of which media "simply sides with Israel."  I really do.  CNN?  Network TV?  NYTimes? Anytown USA's local campus newspapers? It's pretty clear you're not a regular reader of the Israeli press or you would surely know there is not across the board 'simple siding with Israel' from Israelis either.

The US government has and will likely continue to support the one true democracy in the Middle East, it is certain so as far as that goes, most of the federal branches of government will be firmly behind Israel.  Perhaps they know something you don't?  They can't all be beholding to those 6 million Israelis, can they?  Or to the other 7 million Jews who exist on this planet of 6,000,000,000 humans.  Yeppers.  Small number of people.  In a small little land.  Without any oil, even! 

As for the foreign aid, Israel did fine before the US foreign aid as it did from its inception through until the early 1970s.   But do you also resent the equal sum of aid that goes to Egypt annually?  Do you know how that mutual financial aid deal began in the 70s?  Are you aware of which US president negotiated that arrangement?  As hard as it is to take back what has long been given, it would likely require both ends of the bargain struck between Israel and Egypt to be overturned as a way to set your mind at ease that Israel was no longer a recipient of US aid.  Unfortunately, I'm afraid the Egyptians would be far less sanguine about giving up theirs.  Don't think that will happen soon though many Israelis would be grateful for such a cessation.

I have to believe you're not following the story very closely if that's your take, Nefud.  

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Diplomacy - hasn't worked thus far but that doesn't mean it wont work in future. It was cliched here in Northern Ireland to say the conflict was intractable (I never did) and we'd be killing each other for ever. Things change.

Military solution - The arguments that inform current military activity do not allow for quantitative considerations. why not just go all the way and kill them all? One of the sides has the capability to do so.

My personal view is that it is the human condition to strive to be better than we are.

p.s. My thoughts are with you and your mother Susan.

i was kidding about madagascar, lord almighty

i think you're proving my point for me, the mainstream media is either framing the story as "why did hamas make the israelis do this terrible thing!?!?!", showing what i like to call "war porn," or talking about that stupid jet liner that went down in the hudson. there's no in-depth discussion readily availible if all you have time for is an hour of mainstream news.

i'm not really about vomiting a wall of text at people though. these two images are all all anyone needs to know

 and some really awesome and non-ironic graffiti from the noble israelis

 Which only goes to demonstrate that you really don't have a clue, Nefud.  Unbelievably ridiculous.  By the way, I knew your Madagascar Plan was a joke and that's why I responded with the accompanying throwaway quip.

But your maps.  I don't know the source of your maps but I have seen them before.  "Jewish" land????  Nope.  Not so. 

You are so far off on your knowledge that you truly do need an impartial and more complete history for us to have any meaningful dialogue.

You show the photo of a wall with graffiti.  And any thoughtful person is to assume what?  That the writing expresses the views of the JDL?  That the writing expresses the prevailing view of Jews?  Israelis?  When one random soul expresses a "Kill 'em all" emotion, what conclusion should we draw? 

Anyway, I already mentioned that it is and always has  been the desire of the Israelis to include Arabs in the populations as has always been the case.  It has exclusively been the Arab states who have officially and unofficially exiled Jews from every neighboring state, many of whom found refuge in Israel.  And, needless to say, it has not only been Arab states where Jews have been rounded up, exterminated, or sent away to other lands.  Think Spain.  USSR.  Think recent history to ancient and in between.

Israel is going nowhere.  Arabs wishing to live side by side in peace are and always have been welcome.

One last thing.  I think you should do your own research as to the terminology "Palestinian" and "Palestine" which may put a little context (something sorely missing from anti-Israeli websites) on your "maps."  Look at any neutral history you can find of the last oh say 100 years of the region.  Funny but I have more meaningful knowledgeable conversations with a long time Jordanian friend who is a subscriber to Al Jazeera TV than this exchange we're having.  Unbelievable.

Susan

PS  So do you want a copy of that CD or am I to take it you'll be continuing with your ... uh... present sources of information?  I really would be happy to send you one and then pick up the discussion once you have some sort of a foundation. 

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

yeah i'll take one i just keep forgetting to pm you my address

i agree with you that irseal is going nowhere, and there's a part of me that's.....relieved? that they are dedicated to "crushing" their remining enemies. hopefully once hamas is gone things will calm down.

i honestly think we're starting on way too opposite sides of the political spectrum to find common ground. i feel that every soldier is a common thug willing to kill for money. i'll start supporting the troops when they start fragging their officers. i'd rather see my family killed in front of me than kill a human being. etc, etc. maybe if we had someone in the middle to mediate for us

Nefud is against that idea of transplanting democracy. OK . Forget that. I'd like to see the Middle East peoples ( who have talents and resources, and capital including from oil.) get envolved in programs that  would be more of a 'junior achievement' approach, encouraging entreprenureship, capitalism, and i don't care -let them choose their own type of government- take China-a communist, capitalist mix. Right. Now as these peoples begin to develope business and trade and a chance of a more satisfying life for their kids ipso facto time and energy expended on violence is edged out . Street gangs thrive where opportunities are absent , right.

Now , no magic wand overnight transformation can happen, but a new , modern, unconcerned with religion per se mix could emerge. Human energy and interests are addressed to better, constructive pursuits. A side benefit could be an almost unconcern for what Isreal is or is doing. These are all Semite people of the book, so alot in common.

Lose the rockets and open the marketplace.

i just want to point out that this is exactly how we ended up with hamas in charge over there*. democracy is the best thing we have so far, but boy does it fuck up sometimes (another reason i am against rabid support of pie-in-the-sky ideals like "spreading freedom")

*i hope that i did not at any time come off as pro-hamas above, they are fairly horrible in their own right, of course

Right you are on the election and Hamas. There must be a moderate, upper monied class group -ah the Henry Fords of Jordan ? 

Common guys get 'doing' projects, expand business, stop with the no fun street gang and rockets. OK set up a Peace Palace there, not really what I had in mind but I don't care so much about the vehicle ( Hamas withstanding ; ) ) Get on the road to a better destination. Make some changes y'all. Hustle up , make some bread, proceed from there.

Thank you for reminding me.  I had forgotten that you had told me that long ago.  It's not political though, do you think?  It's more philosophical.  Those at your end of the spectrum, were they ever to wildly multiply, would signal a rush to the finish line of humanity in the face of what will always remain a constant -- brutality, cruelty and evil.  To not recognize evil is one thing.  To recognize it and be unwilling to do anything in your own defense is... well I cannot even think of the species this might apply to but they must be extinct.  But again, that's just a stretch of logic we'll never have to experience in any of our lifetimes. 

I will send you the CD though because you can fast forward past the killing parts and still find the historical elements interesting I think.  There's even some good stuff from Mark Twain!

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

 Once again, my friend (do not hear that with a McCain inflection, okay?), Hamas and their brothers in arms against whom they fight, the other major Palestinian faction Fatah, were duking it out before every last (8000) Jew left Gaza in 2007.  I'm glad you accept that Hamas is "fairly horrible."  If you read on, you might find a stronger description.  And you can read and watch their own words and expressions.  Ask if you want sources.  It might send you into convulsions though.  Especially their televised kiddie shows.  Mickey Martyr and so on.  And I'm only serious.

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Hahaha, Nefud!  I love your dad.  What a realist.  And I agree completely.

Hey, anybody read the Atlantic Monthly book review of the new book "Patty Got a Gun" (as in Patty Hearst)?  Boy does it describe the era well.  Caitlin Flanagan, whoever she is, wrote the review.  Not the book.  She must be some Irish chick. 

Susan

     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

Ben Franklin

Jordan .

*posts booth's smug emoticon*

(kidding)